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Sarah_and_Jazzy

Dealing With Vegans

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I only have one thing to say to the vegan and vegetarian extremists.....

"My food craps on your food".. lol..

[ROTFL] [ROTFL] [ROTFL]

DITTO!!!!

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Again, please don't confuse vegans with extremists.

Agreed.

I know several vegans, and while I won't judge the entire population by the few examples I've been exposed to- I find that they are aware of the fact that they can't COMPLETELY eliminate animal products from their lives, but they do their very best to keep it to a minimum. Most of the ones I know own pets as well. I think many of the vegans being described in this thread are also animal rights activists (aka PETA nuts), and while they do sometimes go hand-in-hand, it's definitely not a concrete rule.

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Agreed.

I know several vegans, and while I won't judge the entire population by the few examples I've been exposed to- I find that they are aware of the fact that they can't COMPLETELY eliminate animal products from their lives, but they do their very best to keep it to a minimum. Most of the ones I know own pets as well. I think many of the vegans being described in this thread are also animal rights activists (aka PETA nuts), and while they do sometimes go hand-in-hand, it's definitely not a concrete rule.

We are talking about two areas of this topic, one if humans should use animals at all, which is one premise vegans stand on by definition of being vegan.

The other, how does being a vegan may affect a person's health.

That we have enough today to know in minute detail how hard that very restrictive diet style is and what it does to those that are not extremely careful to supplement that diet.

Which brings us to, why restrict your diet so much, so that you have to go to laboratory fabricated supplements to stay healthy and does that make any kind of sense?

You will have to admit that to not want to "use and profit" from our use of the natural, renewable resources animals have been for humans all our existence, for whatever reasons we may invent, with more or less merit, still doesn't make sense.

Those vegans that still have animals are practically saying we think it is wrong to use animals for our needs, except when it is MY need. :rolleye0014:

Sorry, ethical concerns tend not to be so accomodating. :winking:

You either are a dirty profiteer of those poor animals we share the world with, even if it is your dog for company sleeping at your feet, or the horse you ride, or you stand by the principles that humans should not use animals and that means ALL uses of ALL animals, even those uses that YOU would like to make of them.

Can't be so smug and get on a high horse when you are breaking your own principles, not without being called on it. :tongue9:

There are some ethical questions that truly are black and white

You can't make ethical omelettes without breaking ethical eggs.

Humans using or not animals is one of "them omelettes", before we even get in which kinds of uses, just like you can't be truly honest if you lie, no matter how white or little the lies are.

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I guess I'm not really sure what your point is. Not all vegans are extremeists Merry. :confused0024: Most of them around here aren't, because you can't exactly live in a big city without having to come in contact with some kind of anti-vegan product. They just live the best they can. I can respect that- and they also have enough respect for me to not make comments when I eat a cheeseburger.

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Ditto to Dee-l. I have two vegan friends in particular (unrelated to one another) who are most definitely not vegan for ethical reasons. They were both originally vegetarians, not because they're against eating animals, but because they simply didn't like the taste of meat. Then both of them decided they wanted to try to switch to a vegan diet for the challenge of it. It's all purely a challenge and fun to them to hunt different types of food down, to have to read the packaging, research what they're eating etc. And they most definitely do not shove veganism and animals rights down my throat.

Similar to another friend of mine who is a vegetarian. When the Atkins diet came around she wanted to try it to see if it was possible on a vegetarian diet. (She found it wasn't for her.) She didn't need to diet, she didn't want to diet, she just wanted a challenge. She finds eating in general to be boring and simply a necessity to life, and if she can spice things up and find ways to challenge herself, she will.

Edited by VAQHMA

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We are talking about two areas of this topic, one if humans should use animals at all, which is one premise vegans stand on by definition of being vegan....
But that's some vegans, not all. I don't even know if it's a lot of vegans. The only people like that that I am aware of are PETA types. I certainly don't think of them as representative of the whole. And remember that they, as extremists, probably get more "air time" (in the media and on the Web) than the regular Joes.

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I really have issues for vegans who force their lifestyle on their pets. I really don't think it's in the dog or cat's best interest to remove meat from their diet. I've always wondered what they do when their cat kills and eats a mouse, or if their dog grabs a rabbit.

As long as people make well informed decisions, I don't care what they eat.

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: Common examples of foods that contain gelatin are gelatin desserts, trifles, aspic, marshmallows, candy corn, and confectioneries such as Peeps, gummy bears and jelly babies. Gelatin may be used as a stabilizer, thickener, or texturizer in foods such as jams, yoghurt, cream cheese, and margarine; it is used, as well, in fat-reduced foods to simulate the mouthfeel of fat and to create volume without adding calories.

Animal glues such as hide glue are essentially unrefined gelatin.

It is used to hold silver halide crystals in an emulsion in virtually all photographic films and photographic papers. Despite some efforts, no suitable substitutes with the stability and low cost of gelatin have been found.Used as a carrier, coating or separating agent for other substances; for example, it makes beta-carotene water-soluble thus imparting a yellow colour to any soft drinks containing beta-carotene.Gelatin is closely related to bone glue and is used as a binder in match heads and sandpaper.Cosmetics may contain a non-gelling variant of gelatin under the name hydrolyzed collagen.As a surface sizing, it smooths glossy printing papers or playing cards and maintains the wrinkles in cr?pe paper.

WOW! No Gummy bears! No Make Up! No Pictures of yourself! No playing cards! NO JELLO! No MarshMellows! Just how can one live without these things! No Carrot Juice! No yogurt! No Jams and Jellies!

Gelatin is used to make the shells of paintballs, similar to the way pharmaceutical capsules are produced.

No more vitamins or prescription drugs with capsules..Gotta swallow horse pills.

Although gelatin is 98-99% protein by dry weight, it has less nutritional value than many other protein sources. Gelatin is unusually high in the non-essential amino acids glycine and proline (i.e., those produced by the human body), while lacking certain essential amino acids (i.e., those not produced by the human body). It contains no tryptophan and is deficient in isoleucine, threonine, and methionine. The approximate amino acid composition of gelatin is: glycine 21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%, alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%, phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%, hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%. These values vary, especially the minor constituents, depending on the source of the raw material and processing technique.[9]

Eggs in aspicSeveral Russian researchers offer the following opinion regarding certain peptides found in gelatin: "gelatin peptides reinforce resistance of the stomach mucous tunic to ethanol and stress action, decreasing the ulcer area by twice."[10]

Gelatin has also been claimed to promote general joint health. A study at Ball State University sponsored by Nabisco, the former parent company of Knox gelatin,[11] found that gelatin supplementation relieved knee joint pain and stiffness in athletes.[12]

WOW! This is just from Gelatin...I can't imagine life without a Gummy bear, makeup, bad knees and Ulcers...and wearing flip flops in the snow.....What a miserable life they must live... [ROTFL] and a reason they are always trying to shove their beliefs down us meat eating , horse loving, jam eating ways..

Every "group" of people that believe certain "beliefs" are better than others "beliefs" and will always have "terrrorist" types amoungst them..They usually are the miserable ones that hate their lifestyles....

AD

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You would be amazed at the amount and variety of vegan options out there. Other than Jell-O and capsules, there's nothing on your list that I can't find at my local Co-op.

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If you search for all the many, many different products we get from animal sources, many others than food, that is what most think when they think of our uses of animals, you would be very surprised how ingenious humans have been with those resources of animal origins. :smilie:

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From my experience:

Vegans: A dietary lifestyle. Not necessarily extreme in their views of animal product usage.

Animal Activitists: An extremist way of life, that often incorporates veganism (is that a word?) as part of their cause.

Vegans I can be friends with. Animal Activists chap my arse.

Bahahaha! I watched your manatee video like a dozen times! Hilarious.

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I met a rabid anti-using animals for any purpose woman sitting next to us at a resturant.

I listened to her and then asked why she was eating live creatures with distillations of their crushed and fermented bodies?

I told her that there were studies where plants hooked up to polygraphs showed reactions on a chemical level that expressed pain at being ripped from their roots. Since she was eating torn lettuce, crushed olives, fermented raspberries and other vegetables guillotined by a knife. She had no right to say rude things about horseback riding

Never heard another peep from her & the other idiots at her table. They also left most of their meal, on the plate.

LOVE this .... and wholly agree. Life is life ... and it's given up at some point. The highest honor of a life well lived is to continue to serve after death, to me.

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I really have issues for vegans who force their lifestyle on their pets. I really don't think it's in the dog or cat's best interest to remove meat from their diet. I've always wondered what they do when their cat kills and eats a mouse, or if their dog grabs a rabbit.

It becomes The Dark Secret ... the Skeleton in the Closet and likely drives most of these types BACK to their shrinks.

Probably not all bad .... all things considered.

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There's an old saw that you don't get into a bar fight with a drunk because they don't feel pain while you do.

You also don't get into an argument with a fool 'cause they'll bring you down to thier level and then beat you with experience.

Similarly it's pointless to argue with a true believer because their mind is made up and they don't want to be confused with facts.

Avoid the discussion where possible. If that's not possible make your points in as few words as possible. Don't get drawn into long discussions and don't allow them to pull you into triviality. Don't ever accept their definitions of anything. Don't engage in hypotheical or "theoretical" discussions.

Avoid name-calling. Dont' be sarcastic (tough on for me :winking: ). If thier opening gambit of discussion is a declarative sentence with a question mark at the end know that you are being baited. Politely decline and walk away. Then go have a drink to celebrate the fact that you've totally frustrated the zealot!!! :smilie:

G.

This is likely the best advice I've heard .... but OH so very hard to do when you'd really like to feed their arrogant/ignorant faces some living flesh, albeit heavily knuckled and usually wearing rings.

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I eat meat. I love cheeseburgers. I enjoy the meatless Morning Star patties and tofu and such, but it doesn't mean I will ever give up eating meat, even after working the kill floor of LSU's slaughter facility.

I'll also never force that kind of an alternate dietary lifestyle on my dog, who is by nature, a carnivore.

Yes I do exploit my horses. That's the trade-off for always having full bellies, good health, farrier care, shelter, room to run, mud to roll in and 24/7 access to hay. They can put up with the very little riding I squeeze in these days in return for all the manure shoveling that I do, literally and metaphorically.

You know why? Cuz I'm human. I have a bigger brain and opposable thumbs.

When a similar debate came up on an endurance forum I used to subscribe to, I'll never forget when one of the members told us she was using her draft horse to move hay to her property one fall via good ol' fashioned harness and fully-loaded hay wagon when someone stopped and asked her if she'd ever considered if the horse actually *wanted* to do that kind of manual labor. Without missing a beat the member answered matter of factly "Of course I didn't. I just assumed he'd want to eat during the winter, cuz that's part of the deal."

Brilliant.

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Yes I do exploit my horses. That's the trade-off for always having full bellies, good health, farrier care, shelter, room to run, mud to roll in and 24/7 access to hay. They can put up with the very little riding I squeeze in these days in return for all the manure shoveling that I do, literally and metaphorically.

You know why? Cuz I'm human. I have a bigger brain and opposable thumbs.

[ROTFL]

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Vegans are extemists. They have, for their own reasons, abandoned the very human practice of eating and using animal products. They certainly can do this if they want to. It may not be "animal rights extemism" but neither is it exactly mainstream.

That a significant percentage take "the next step" and determine that any animal use in any form is some sort of cruelty or otherwise immoral and unethical conduct is completely understandable and logically follows from the vegan first premis.

Just using the "duck test" here. :winking:

G.

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It's just so bad to not be mainstream. I know.

Maybe if it is right to be a vegetarian/vegan is not about mainstream or not, but about using some common sense?

Does it make sense for most humans, that have evolved to need them, to not eat animal products, whatever the reason, other than those few that have some allergy or lack of certain enzymes or other physiological disability that keeps them from it?

No, it doesn't make sense.

Not to be mainstream is the least of the reasons why the rest of humans wonder about those that choose to restrict their diets to levels that make maintaining good health very difficult if not harmful.

Be assured everyone will respect your right to eat exactly what you want, no matter what we think.

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This went beyond 'BRILLIANT' and entered into the realm of SPECTACULAR!

... she was using her draft horse to move hay to her property one fall via good ol' fashioned harness and fully-loaded hay wagon when someone stopped and asked her if she'd ever considered if the horse actually *wanted* to do that kind of manual labor.

Without missing a beat the member answered matter of factly:

"Of course I didn't. I just assumed he'd want to eat during the winter, cuz that's part of the deal."

Brilliant.

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I go to a website called Care2.com for environmental news. It also has discussion/news of other 'activist' issues, womens' rights, animal rights, etc...

Some of the comments on these animal rights-related news articles are ridiculous. Many are intelligent and encouraging, promoting vegetarian/vegan lifestyles, but others downright abuse or insult those who eat meat...even those who may live active full lives helping animals anyway. And it's not always about the treatment of animals being used for food, it's about eating them, period. Yet I've never seen an answer to the question of, if humans shouldn't eat meat, what about lions, leopards, sharks, etc.?

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The pat response is 'they have to ... we don't'.

I especially liked the responses to this question, posed after reading how a vegan lifestyle SAVES 100 animal lives per year.

"What happens to those 'saved' animals? What will become of those species?"

The responses were ....... dumbfounding.

'The sooner cattle are extinct the sooner our planet will escape their terrorism.'

'We'll turn them loose to run wild and free as God intended.'

(This from a person one can assume is living a comfortable, modern life ... not roaming wild and free, grazing on grasses and such.)

This, an opinion on why dairy cattle suffer so ....

'The dairy cow mourns her milk being stolen & diverted to HUMANS and not going for her precious young.'

Ummmm ..... sure. Totally understandable if you've completely lost your mind.

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I am a vegetarian, and have considered veganism. And you know what my problem is with meat eaters?

The lack of MODERATION!

No one NEEDS to eat meat 3 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year! And yet it is SO hard to find quick and easy vegetarian options. Or meals that aren't stuffed full of preservatives and hormones. It is difficult unless you want to buy in bulk and just vegetables.

When the forests are being cut down so that we can raise MORE cows so that we can eat MORE hamburger because we aren't satisfied with just one a day, then there is a problem.

I am not a vegetarian because I am against eating meat, in fact, I would love to have some meat every once in a while, but I am a vegetarian because I hope I can help correct the balance even by a tiny bit.

You can get adequate protein from vegetables, in fact plant protein is better for you than animal protein. So why not limit eating meat once every 2 or 3 days, instead of multiple times in a day? Why not eat smaller meat portions? Why, because we are thinking about our wants RIGHT now, instead of the needs of this world in the long term.

References:

http://greenanswers.com/q/189562/forests-t...rest-raise-cows

http://www.foodaq.com/html/Vegetarian-Vegan/196802.html

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

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Why not allow people to live their lives as they see fit?

G.

Because unfortunately, it is not all about you. Or me. Or my mom. Or my best friend. It is about every single person who lives on this earth. And about our children, and grandchildren.

When we are using sooooo many of the earths resources in order for everyone to have un-limited hamburgers, then it becomes everyones problems. The way we manage resources and how we plan to sustain the earth is everyones business.

But we live in a generation/society that is all about the individual. And it is disturbing to me.

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Because unfortunately, it is not all about you. Or me. Or my mom. Or my best friend. It is about every single person who lives on this earth. And about our children, and grandchildren.

When we are using sooooo many of the earths resources in order for everyone to have un-limited hamburgers, then it becomes everyones problems. The way we manage resources and how we plan to sustain the earth is everyones business.

But we live in a generation/society that is all about the individual. And it is disturbing to me.

It disturbs me, too. But I'm also disturbed by self-proclaimed experts who decree that some act or omission of mine will be the end of civiliazation as we know it unless I comply with their particular belief system. In this sense the murder/suicide bomber blowing himself up in a pizza parlor and the vegan throwing paint on a fur wearer are just different degrees of the same problem.

I'm also disturbed by the folks who base their condemnation of others on junk science and unsupported allegations. We see enough that in these waters.

I'm not a fan of "malignant individualism," but neither am I a fan of "pseudo-groupcentric think."

Maybe Aristotle is still right.

G.

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Well not all vegans/vegetarians are telling you that you need to become a vegetarian/vegan. If you would read for content, I actually stated my problem is with people and their lack of moderation. Eating meat is fine. But it should be done in moderation, just like everything else except for love, happiness and joy.

And whether you like it or not, the depletion of natural resources IS everyones problem. Be it groupcentric or not.

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The truth is, you cannot truely be vegan unless you use NO animal products, in anything. It generally takes an extremist to do such things. My chickens lay eggs. Should I let them rot? Is it not cruel to leave a sheep wooly all summer, because shaving them for their wool is an animal product?

I just can't get my head around it. It is natures way that animals eat other animals. Those with vegan dogs make me sick, not only are they using that animal for their own entertainment by keeping it as a pet, they are completely going against nature and forcing their ideas on an animal that cannot voice his opinion on the matter... is that not the very thing they get their panties in a wad about?

Why is it ok that people have jobs and earn a living, when it is so awful animals to? Id love to be a horse, good care, all the food I want, medical expenses paid, just for entertaining some stupid human a couple of hours a day.

If they claim their issue is with farming practices, they need to wake up and realize the entire farming industry has issues, not just the animal side of it. You can buy products from local farms. That argument really does not hold water.

Humans were designed to be omnivores. Just like lions are carnivores and horses herbivores. Nature is what it is and has a perfect balance in and of itself. Don't think you can mess with that just because you like being a trendy kid with an agenda.

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