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sylvesmiller

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Please listen to the message of Ron's first-hand account of walking in on a late term abortion vs the successful delivery of a premmie, and please respond with your reaction.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MkAsLPrnJGc?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Edited by Sylves

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He has a good point but...

It's not HIS choice. It's the woman's choice.

I feel that his heart is in the right place (going by the message) and he is more than welcome to be against abortion 100%.

But like I said in the exotic mammal thread, the government needs to keep their hands out of MY decisions. If I choose to have an abortion for whatever reason, that is MY choice. Or YOUR choice.

Not his. Not anyone else's.

And just so the record is clear. I am Pro-choice and Anti-abortion for myself. I would not get an abortion but would fully support any woman's choice to do so. See how easy that is?

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^^^look at that...

i do like a lot of what he has to say, however, with regard to good governance. he's like chicken soup for my political woes.

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Yet you allow the government to make decissions for others on how their tax dollars should be spent...Many use abortion as a birth control and has nothing to do with how the fetus was concieved, womans health, or the rights of the father involved..

It is a beating heart and in the world outside the womb...when one stops a heart from beating the government says its murder... can't have it both ways... many aborted babies hearts are still beating when they are ripped from the womb..ever wonder what they are feeling at their last moments of life?:confused0024:

AD

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I'm not sure how allowing the gov. To do things with tax dollars is the same as letting them tell me what I can and cannot do with my body

Really? Try buying a piece of land & build a house. The g-ment will tell you if you can dig a well & install a septic system, or if you must hook to city/county services. Clear the land, build a fence & watch your taxes increase. Add out-buildings, pay even more taxes & get it paid off. Quit paying taxes on YOUR property & see how long it takes for the g-ment to LEGALLY tell you to get YOUR body off of THEIR property.

At no point do I want the government to tell me what I can & cannot do with my body. It is not their decision to make, it's mine.

But they do it all the time. Are you allowed to read/send text messages while driving? Do you cross the road in the middle of the block or walk to the corner & wait for the light that says "DON'T WALK" to give you permission to cross? In many areas it is illegal to use an outdoor grill that is fueled with charcoal. The government tells us not to smoke, but many of us do it knowing it is bad for our health. In response the commonwealth of Virginia more than tripled the tax for manufacturing tobacco products.

Those were just a few of countless ways that the government tells us what to do/not do & how they punish for noncompliance.

Edited by luther

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Here are a few facts about abortion;

1) It's been available longer than I've been alive.

2) I was 21 years old when the Supreme Court ruled on Roe vs Wade.

3) All that Roe vs Wade ruling did was make it legal to conspire to kill another human being & commit the act.

What happens when a child survives an abortion? Too often they are stuck in a corner & left to die from neglect. Would you do that to your foal, pup, or kitten? Would you allow your neighbor to do it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYRpIf2F9NA&feature=related

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Perhaps some of you who believe in your "right to choose" would like to read about some failed abortions, written by people that were denied their right to live, but still managed to survive.

http://realchoice.0catch.com/dreadcomplication.htm

I know that reading all those stories is very time consuming, so why not just spend 15-20 minutes listening to Gianna Jessen speak? You don't have to watch. Open another window & catch up with your friends here, on FB & FUGLY (the truly important stuff). Just listen to her.

Yes, she does talk about her faith as a christian. So what? Does that really matter? The theme of her speech is abortion & the fact that she is happy that she survived her mother's pregnancy, in spite of being partially handicapped & not wanted.

Edited by luther

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I do want to add real quick before I head to bed tonight that both of my comments earlier were directed towards abortions in general, not late term abortions. I do not agree with late term abortions.

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Thank you Luther for the input. I've been following "Live Action" on facebook for sometime now, and I have been simply appalled by what I have been learning. Abby Johnson's message hits home for me.

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late term or earlier ..its still stopping SOMEONES heart and ending their life.. women are supposed to be the caretakers of life..not the takers of life...how very selfish to even think ones life is more important than anothers life is..I am so glad my mother never thought of me as "an inconvenience"...:questionicon:

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abortion is a womans choise. she is the one who has to live with the decission.

if you want to see what happens when abortion is made illegal, look to ireland, where women are throwing themselves down stairs or having hack job abortions done is suspect places by suspect "doctors"

i have had 2 abortions. once when i was forced into preagnancy by an abusive husband who threw out my bc and raped me when i slept. once when my daughter was a few months old. bc failed and i was suffering post partum depression.

making abortion illegal does not punish the very few who use it as birth control, they do not care what happens to their baby, but it DOES punish all the women who realise their own limitations and who know that carrying a child will put their own life in danger. women in bad life situations, women with medical conditions, and it will also spare the parents and children of the suffering of a child being born with conditions that are not compatibale with life.

i know a woman who was against abortion for her self. her daughter had a condition where her brain was basically on the outside of her skull. the child was only conciouss for short periods of incredible pain and suffering and all her parents could do was watch her suffer for 9 whole days before she died. the mother now says that if it happens again, she will rather have to live with herself having had an abortion than live with the memories of a newborn baby in that much pain just waiting to die.

i think the rules concerning late term abortions should he stronger and better uppheld.

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late term or earlier ..its still stopping SOMEONES heart and ending their life.. women are supposed to be the caretakers of life..not the takers of life...how very selfish to even think ones life is more important than anothers life is..I am so glad my mother never thought of me as "an inconvenience"...:questionicon:

AD

question, if the heart isn't beating yet, would you still consider it 'ending their life'?

What happens when a child survives an abortion? Too often they are stuck in a corner & left to die from neglect. Would you do that to your foal, pup, or kitten? Would you allow your neighbor to do it?

A failed abortion is awful for all involved, but I don't think forcing the system to take on all of those babies that women didn't want is going to help anything. The children who would have been aborted as fetuses are still going to live with the knowledge that their mom didn't want them. I mean, some women are not meant to be mothers, at least they are real enough with themselves to know that instead of bringing an innocent life into this world.

What if your mother did think of you as "an inconvenience" your whole life? Don't you think that would majorly screw a person up to grow up knowing they weren't wanted?

As for doing it to a foal, puppy or kitten. We abort them all the time. We do emergency spays on dogs & cats to terminate pregnancies. It's common practice to pinch off a twin in horses or give them drugs to force them to abort if a stud gets in with them. And don't kid yourself into thinking for one minute that humans don't leave foals, puppies & kittens in a corner to die of neglect.

Ok, all of you who are against abortion, where do you draw the line? Is it a person at the time of conception? When the heart is beating? When it is viable outside of the womb? What happens if a woman miscarries? Is it then murder because she did something 'wrong'? What if it's a matter of choosing between the fetus & the mother? What if they (parents & doctors) know if the baby is carried to term it will only live a few hours and those few hours will be painful? What if

My personal choice is that if my husband and I found out we were pregnant tomorrow, yes we would carry to term. But that should be our choice, not the governments. I take bringing a baby into this world very seriously. I know that it will change my life forever. I know that it is expensive to raise a child. If someone knows they are not capable of caring for a child (physically, emotionally, whatever), why force them to do it? It's not good for anyone involved. I hear people complain all the time about 'bad parents' why force people who know they aren't going to be able to do a good job be parents? Why force people who know they can't afford to be parents, to be parents?

At the end of the day, I firmly believe that the woman should make the final decision on what is happening in her body. It may not be my choice to have an abortion, but I will defend that choice.

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The really sad thing here is the fact that those who know they shouldn't be bringing a child into the world are some that would make the BEST parents. They make intelligent and responsible choices.

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At the end of the day, I firmly believe that the woman should make the final decision on what is happening in her body.

You stated earlier "I do not agree with late term abortions" (post 11). I'm curious where you draw the line, then, since you asked this question of others? What do you consider 'late term' and how do you harmonize this with the belief women should have the power of choice?

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http://herestheblood.com/

Please take five minutes to watch the video on the above link.

Those women who are going against the law in Ireland to terminate their pregnancies need to be educated so that they can make more informed decisions before putting their lives at risk. Many analogies come to mind, but I believe that only pro-life individuals would accept them.

What do the pro-lifers and extreme conservatives say about the rape and incest cases? Talk about touchy. Murder of an unborn child vs a heinous act of violence on an innocent child or woman.

Edited by Sylves

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You stated earlier "I do not agree with late term abortions" (post 11). I'm curious where you draw the line, then, since you asked this question of others? What do you consider 'late term' and how do you harmonize this with the belief women should have the power of choice?

My personal line is it is viable outside the womb without extensive or going above & beyond medical care. I harmonize it because by this point the woman has had the option to choose.

I know my husband's line is a heartbeat.

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Having a surgical Abortion is a very tough choice for a woman to make, but a late term abortion must be right down traumatic. These late term abortions are not common and are not done on a whim. The procedures are often done because the fetus is not viable/ or prolonging the pregnancy would be detrimental to the mother.

I do not know why the woman he is speaking about made the choice to have a late term abortion, but I am pretty sure it was a hard decision to make. I am sure that she made the choice after careful consideration and the guidance of her doctors.

I have never been put in the position of having to make such a choice. If I was told that I was carrying a pregnancy that would for sure end in the death of the fetus and my death as well, or that the child I was carrying would have little quality of life, I would end the pregnancy.

If I am dead I cannot be there for my family. If the child is born with severe disability I will not be around forever to guarantee good quality care and life.

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but I don't think forcing the system to take on all of those babies that women didn't want is going to help anything.

Yet its ok to force those of us that are against it to pay for it through our collected taxes..by the government..

What if your mother did think of you as "an inconvenience" your whole life? Don't you think that would majorly screw a person up to grow up knowing they weren't wanted?

No child is convenient, just ask any parent...what screws them up is someone not loving them and paying attention to them, which is a majority of homes with kids where both parents work..Read the statistics.. kids without at least one parent home full time is most likely to get into trouble. and yes I was inconvenient at the time, my mother was going to divorce my dad.. I wasn't a boy either and ruined her plans.. Next July 2012 they will be married for 60 years.. So inconvient at the time does not make it inconvenient for life.. I must have brought them together since they had two more girls and stayed married..never screwed me up, Disappointed me if anything but I found it out later in life..and I had my big girl pants on...

women are not meant to be mothers, at least they are real enough with themselves to know that instead of bringing an innocent life into this world.

Yes I know..they should get fixed then instead of murdering innocent lives...some animals eat their young at birth also..

Is it a person at the time of conception?

YES.. otherwise a womans body would reject it if it were a monkey.

When the heart is beating?

especially if the heart is beating which is 7 days after egg meets sperm

What happens if a woman miscarries? Is it then murder because she did something 'wrong'

iTs natures way of culling out the bad cases of development.

What if it's a matter of choosing between the fetus & the mother?

I've known women that had cancer while pregnant..Some lived and some past..but all were happy to see that baby and know that they would live on through that child.

If someone knows they are not capable of caring for a child (physically, emotionally, whatever), why force them to do it?

There are options for all three of your examples..why force them to HAVE an abortion because they are having some emotional problems..get them help. In most cases with women the hormones will make her feel better along with the life growing inside her. Oh and Yes I have know others to lie in bed the whole time just to have that little mirracle..My youngest sister was in a bad relationship, got an abortion.. then got pregnant again two months later...left the jerk..had the kid and raised it herself till she got married and had another kid.. SHE hates the father of her son because of how he made her feel at the time she was pregnant the first time.. Now that she grand children from the son she almost aborted, she has to wonder what they would be like as an adult.. Willie turned out to be a good man..did two tours in Iraq, and works hard to give his kids a good life..See ...when she went into "Planned Parenthood" Clinic..they told her it was for the best since the child had no future...She lives with this decission. When her daughter got pregnant at 16, she encouraged her to keep her baby because of her experience with guilt..guilt she suppressed for years until her own grandchildren were born..

. I hear people complain all the time about 'bad parents' why force people who know they aren't going to be able to do a good job be parents?

Noone forces them to have sex, they do it, babys are born out of it.. sometimes like OZ says, they make the best parents..noone knows at the beginning if they will make good parents or not. its CHOICES that a parent makes.

Why force people who know they can't afford to be parents, to be parents?

In that case, more than half of America should not have children, but the GOVERNMENT pays for them to accomplish this. I would much rather help a child in need then to murder them before life can have a chance.

AD

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Storygirl,

late term abortions are common and many abortion doctors do it for the money.. Just look at George Tillers spreadsheet..its never about the mother or baby with these guys, its about the money and should not even be called doctors since they have broken the hippocratic oath years ago performing them.

AD

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Well AD, I went on a hunt for the most accurate info I felt I could trust.

United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.[12] Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there are no precise data for the number of abortions performed after viability.[12] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy#Incidence

This graph is very close to the wiki info.

IB-induced-abortion-c2.gif

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

It would make sense that Dr. Tiller's spread sheet would show a high percentage of late term abortion considering that he specialized in late term abortion.

In accordance with Kansas state law Tiller performed late-term abortions, which helped to make him a focal point for anti-abortion protest and violence. Tiller treated patients who discovered late in pregnancy that their fetuses had severe or fatal birth defects. He also aborted healthy late-term fetuses, in cases where two doctors certified that carrying the fetus to term would cause the woman "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller#Late_term_abortion

By all accounts it does not sound as if Dr. Tiller was killing "inconvenient" babies. He was however saving a life or ending a life of suffering. Spin it what ever way like, but ending a late term pregnancy is not something that is done easily.

In 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the constitutional right to privacy extends to the decision of a woman, in consultation with her physician, to terminate a pregnancy.

The Court also determined, however, that this right is not absolute and it must be balanced against the state's legitimate interest in protecting both the health of the pregnant woman and the developing human life. Therefore, according to Roe, the state's interest in protecting potential life becomes compelling at the point of fetal viability (when the fetus has the capacity for sustained survival outside the uterus). States are allowed to, and indeed have, severely restricted access to abortion in the third-trimester, except, as the Supreme Court has ruled, when necessary to preserve the woman's life or health. In subsequent cases, the Court made clear that viability is a medical determination, which varies with each pregnancy, and that it is the responsibility of the attending physician to make that determination.

As the Guttmacher Institute points out in a brief on this issue, the Supreme Court has held that:

even after fetal viability, states may not prohibit abortions ?necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother;?

?health? in this context includes both physical and mental health;

only the physician, in the course of evaluating the specific circumstances of an individual case, can define what constitutes ?health? and when a fetus is viable; and

states cannot require additional physicians to confirm the physician?s judgment that the woman?s life or health is at risk.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/06/02/thirdtrimester-abortions-facts-stories-and-how-you-can-help-0

Most states restrict late-term abortions.

The Guttmacher brief notes that:

37 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy.

24 states initiate prohibitions at fetal viability.

5 states initiate prohibitions in the third trimester.

8 states initiate prohibitions after a certain number of weeks, generally 24.

The circumstances under which procedures are permitted after that point vary from state to state. For example:

29 states permit abortions to preserve the life or health of the woman;

4 states permit abortions to save the life or health of the woman, but use a narrow definition of health;

4 states permit abortions only to save the life of the woman.

Some states require the involvement of a second physician when a later-term abortion is performed. Nine states require that a second physician attend in order to treat a fetus if it is born alive. Ten states require that a second physician certify that the abortion is medically necessary.

Kansas law is strict on the issue of late-term abortions.

Kansas law requires that such procedures can only be performed after viability if two independent doctors agree that not to do so would put the mother at risk of irreparable harm by giving birth.

I hope I have helped with factual information.

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Yet its ok to force those of us that are against it to pay for it through our collected taxes..by the government..

No where did I say the government should pay for abortions

No child is convenient, just ask any parent...what screws them up is someone not loving them and paying attention to them, which is a majority of homes with kids where both parents work..Read the statistics.. kids without at least one parent home full time is most likely to get into trouble. and yes I was inconvenient at the time, my mother was going to divorce my dad.. I wasn't a boy either and ruined her plans.. Next July 2012 they will be married for 60 years.. So inconvient at the time does not make it inconvenient for life.. I must have brought them together since they had two more girls and stayed married..never screwed me up, Disappointed me if anything but I found it out later in life..and I had my big girl pants on...

Agreed, no child is convenient, but at least they're wanted. And I agree what screws someone up is not having parents that love them & pay attention to them. I, personally, don't think that denying a woman the right to choose will automatically make them want the child.

Yes I know..they should get fixed then instead of murdering innocent lives...some animals eat their young at birth also..

Please, show me something that, aside from sex, is 100% at preventing conception.

YES.. otherwise a womans body would reject it if it were a monkey.

So are we going to start outlawing birth control that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting into the uterus? I know the BC that I was on makes it harder for the sperm to survive, harder for them to fertilize an egg, but if a sperm happens to survive & fertilize, it makes it harder for the fertilized egg to implant. So if it's a 'person' as soon as it's conceived are we going to need to outlaw these types of BC? I would wonder if this would increase the likely hood that the bc would fail.

iTs natures way of culling out the bad cases of development.

What if the miscarriage is caused by an accident? I'm clumsy, what if I'm pregnant and stumble over my cat and fall which then results in a miscarriage?

I've known women that had cancer while pregnant..Some lived and some past..but all were happy to see that baby and know that they would live on through that child.

Yes and that was their choice. I feel that in a world where abortion is illegal, the fetus then becomes more important that the life of the mother.

There are options for all three of your examples..why force them to HAVE an abortion because they are having some emotional problems..get them help. In most cases with women the hormones will make her feel better along with the life growing inside her. Oh and Yes I have know others to lie in bed the whole time just to have that little mirracle..

I'm not saying we should force people with those issues to have an abortion, I'm saying we should give them the choice.

Yes, some people are willing to lie in bed their entire pregnancy and that's great. I'm not discounting that people can and will do these things for their unborn child. But, what if it's a family that needs 2 people working? Or what if something happens to the father & he cannot work so it's up to the mother to work? What if there is an accident and the father has been killed?

My youngest sister was in a bad relationship, got an abortion.. then got pregnant again two months later...left the jerk..had the kid and raised it herself till she got married and had another kid.. SHE hates the father of her son because of how he made her feel at the time she was pregnant the first time.. Now that she grand children from the son she almost aborted, she has to wonder what they would be like as an adult.. Willie turned out to be a good man..did two tours in Iraq, and works hard to give his kids a good life..See ...when she went into "Planned Parenthood" Clinic..they told her it was for the best since the child had no future...She lives with this decission. When her daughter got pregnant at 16, she encouraged her to keep her baby because of her experience with guilt..guilt she suppressed for years until her own grandchildren were born..

I'm glad your sister was given that choice and didn't have it made for her. I'm also glad she encouraged her daughter to keep the baby. But, I am also glad that they both had a choice.

I'm not saying abortions are wonderful ways of getting rid of something you don't want and I feel that, that is what you are taking away from what I am saying. It's not. I think there are a lot of factors that play into someone's decision and that choice should not be taken away by the government.

Noone forces them to have sex, they do it, babys are born out of it.. sometimes like OZ says, they make the best parents..noone knows at the beginning if they will make good parents or not. its CHOICES that a parent makes.

True, no one forces them to have sex and there is no 100% full proof form of birth control. Are we saying that couples who don't want children should not have sex? That, I feel, is ridiculous.

In that case, more than half of America should not have children, but the GOVERNMENT pays for them to accomplish this. I would much rather help a child in need then to murder them before life can have a chance.

I agree, more than half of American should not have children. I'm confused as to what you're saying when you say "but the GOVERNMENT pays for them to accomplish this."

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What are couples supposed to do if they absolutely don't want any children, you ask? My cousin is 100% against ever having a child. He thought of this before getting married. As a wedding gift to his wife, he had a vasectomy! My husband I have have been blessed with two children, and honestly, we don't want anymore children. Without getting into personal information, we are very intentional about NOT allowing his sperm to meet my eggs. :rolleye0014:

Education is important. Couples and teens who are sexually active have a responsiblility to be intentional.

But, back to pregnancies as a result of rape and incest, and pregnancies with severe medical complications... As stongly as I feel about abortion, in these cases, abortion becomes less of a humanity issue and more of a medical issue that should be between a patient and her doctor.

Edited by Sylves

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What are couples supposed to do if they absolutely don't want any children, you ask? My cousin is 100% against ever having a child. He thought of this before getting married. As a wedding gift to his wife, he had a vasectomy! My husband I have have been blessed with two children, and honestly, we don't want anymore children. Without getting into personal information, we are very intentional about NOT allowing his sperm to meet my eggs. :rolleye0014:

Education is important. Couples and teens who are sexually active have a responsiblility to be intentional.

But, back to pregnancies as a result of rape and incest, and pregnancies with severe medical complications... As stongly as I feel about abortion, in these cases, abortion becomes less of a humanity issue and more of a medical issue that should be between a patient and her doctor.

Sterilization is not 100% infallible. I absolutely do not want children. I had my tubes tied. But tubal ligations fail occasionally. Should that happen, I absolutely want my choice to have an abortion as an option.

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Yet its ok to force those of us that are against it to pay for it through our collected taxes..by the government..

In that case, more than half of America should not have children, but the GOVERNMENT pays for them to accomplish this. I would much rather help a child in need then to murder them before life can have a chance.

My tax money pays for a lot of things I don't agree with. It pays (or paid) for the defense of marriage act, the salaries of crooked congressmen and senators, the cost of rendition, torture and keeping prisoners locked up indefinitely in Gitmo.

Why is it not okay for YOUR tax money to support Planned Parenthood, which does so much more than abortions, and it is okay for MY hippy dippy tax money to pay for the water boarding of some guy from Pakistan or the Middle East who may or may not have committed (read: carried out, not planned, not thought about, but DID) a crime?

Tell you what. Let's pretend my tax money pays for abortions for low-income women and your tax money can go towards the cost of bombing Afghanistan (killing women, children, the elderly along with the Taliban) or whatever you support. That way, we both end up killing something, but at least you're not killing a fetus. Deal?

Women need a safe, legal and accessible way to terminate a pregnancy. The de-funding of abortion/Planned Parenthood is only going to put another life at risk--the mother's in addition to the fetus. Do I need to remind anyone of Dr. Kermit Gosnell? (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/us/23doctor.html) THAT is what's going to happen if you make an abortion more difficult/expensive to obtain. Is a mother's life worth little?

Don't agree with abortion? Don't have one. As much as you may think I love abortion, I'm not going to force you or anyone else to get one. I promise. But don't you dare impinge upon my right to chose. Or, if you do, don't complain about having to support yet another deadbeat mom on the public dole because her minimum wage job doesn't have paid maternity leave.

It is in our best interest as a country to ensure that women who can't afford to have a child (and thus are less likely to have the money to be able to pay for an abortion out of pocket), and do NOT WANT to have a child, can have an abortion safely and cheaply.

And the argument that heaven forbid your tax money subsidize the cost of the procedure? I don't buy it one bit when MY tax money has to pay for stuff I don't like. Deal with it.

Edited by bluemarigolds

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Anyway you look at it, killing innocent human life is unjustified, except for the case of the lesser evil (rape, incest, severe medical complications).

VAQHMA- if you're that adamant about not conceiving, then be intentional with your actions. Tubes tied and condoms should do the trick quite well. Speaking of which, I'm kind of wishing that I had my tubes tied when I had my second c-section :/

The word needs to get out. Ladies, educate yourselves about abortions. Be well informed. Open your ears to what the prolifers are saying, and on the flip side, prolifers need to consider the prochoicer's arguements serisously.

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Anyway you look at it, killing innocent human life is unjustified, except for the case of the lesser evil (rape, incest, severe medical complications).

Prove to me that a bunch of cells that are multiplying rapidly is a human life.

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