Sign in to follow this  
Eskielvr

Breeding For Color..

Recommended Posts

DISCLAIMER: I AM IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM ATTEMPTING THIS.. I AM JUST CURIOUS.

Okay... so the old adage " you can't breed for color" seems outdated to me. With all the DNA tests and color possibilities out there, is it not possible to get the color if foal that your looking for?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cover your ears, Piper!!! Mommy is asking weird questions and really getting into the mare watches!!! LOL!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It really depends on what color you're trying to get. :) But yes, with the color tests that are available, its possible FOR SOME color crosses. Wanna throw out a *hypothetical* cough, cough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Say I wanted a buckskin.

Are there any color combinations that would guarantee the foal would be that color??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we are hypothetically talking about Piper (black Overo) and you bred her to a perlino that was homozygous black and Agouti you would be guaranteed a buckskin or a buckskin overo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we are hypothetically talking about Piper (black Overo) and you bred her to a perlino that was homozygous black and Agouti you would be guaranteed a buckskin or a buckskin overo.

So this would be the same with our Monster also right?

What if we wanted a palomino or dun out of her?

Color genetics are so foreign to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this would be the same with our Monster also right?

What if we wanted a palomino or dun out of her?

Color genetics are so foreign to me.

A homozygous agouti and dun stallion would get you a guaranteed classic dun or classic dun overo out of your mare.

There is no way to guarantee you to get a palomino out of her. It is even possible that she is completely unable to have a red based offspring (sorrel, palomino, red dun, etc).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok. Interesting to know. I think we are going to breed her provided we can find a stud we like. We don't care about color though, just a healthy foal. We have a lot of searching to do though before we breed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the other think to think of when breeding her is her conformation, You want to make sure the stud improves on her, has a body that is better than hers, you know if she has a long back, you want to find a stud with a very short back, if she has a weak loin, you want a stud with a very strong one, small bones, heavy bones stud, you get the idea, If you breed a stud who will give you the color you want, but he had all the same or worse faults than your mare, your foal will likely be the worse of the two.. you want to make sure you breed to enhance not only your mares color, but also her conformation, so the foal you get is the horse you want to keep for life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am NOT talking about Piper..

This was just a random thought that popped into my head with all the other threads on GHC about "what color is my horse"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't say you were.. was saying hypothetically as you were, was just mentioning that not only color should be thought of.. no matter the mare or stud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the whole point of my question was about breeding for color..

Lets face it.. honestly ... people want specific color.. and some people just don't care about what they have to do to get it..

So.. the question was.. CAN you breed for color.. not SHOULD you.

For those into genetics.. say I wanted a buckskin foal.. what colors of horses would guarantee that the foal would be that color.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those into genetics.. say I wanted a buckskin foal.. what colors of horses would guarantee that the foal would be that color.

Homozygous dominant Agouti (Homozygous bay) bred to a double cream dilute (cremello, perlino) will yield 100% buckskin. The kicker is that you'd need to know for certain that the one parent is homozygous for the Agouti gene.

Edited by cvm2002

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bay is most likely. Belgians are not true palominos; they are flaxen chestnut. Black-based colors are dominant to red-based, so bay is most likely, with chestnut being possible if the bay is Agouti heterozygous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's absolutely possible to breed for certain colors, if you put in the effort for genetic testing.

Like with Spyder - once we discovered the sire has been color tested and knew what he was, we knew that Apple, a sorrel, we knew her foal would be bay.

Which put a crimp on everyone's guessing "What color will the foal be" :rotf:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even with all the tests it's still usually not a "for sure" that you'll get that color. Lots of things factor in like they've been mentioned the agouti gene and the black/red factor (which both can be tested for). It's still a huge surprise. On the color calculator on horsetesting.com when I put in my stallion (bay tobiano) with a mare I used to have (bay dun solid) it shows the most likely coats/colors I should get are:

17.58% - Bay Tobiano

17.58% - Bay Dun Tobiano

17.58% - Bay Dun

17.58% - Bay

and the least likely is:

6.25% - Red Dun Tobiano

6.25% - Red Dun

6.25% - Chestnut Tobiano

6.25% - Chestnut

1.17% - Grullo Tobiano

1.17% - Grullo

1.17% - Black Tobiano

1.17% - Black

All 3 times we bred them together they produced the least likely results. 1st a Red Dun, then a Grulla Tobiano and last a Chestnut.

Playing around on there I found that if my sister were to breed Xena (our Grulla Tobiano) to a Palomino Overo she'd have the biggest surprise as almost ANY color could happen.

I breed for confirmation and attitude, the color is just extra.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Mom bred 2 bays, thought she would get a bay, and got a liver chestnut, both tested dominant agouti, Miss Shawny, was a pretty copper penny when born, and by the time she was 8, almost a black chestnut. When we bred her with a bay, we got a bay! Shawny tested dominant agouti, no sorrel in her.

Then my Mom bred her sorrel stallion to a sorrel mare, both tested for the red gene, and one tested for a dilute gene.. they got a bay! Go figure.. even blood test will only tell part of it.. Color testing outs said they were one color, even though appearance was another... never really thought about it till now.. I was talking bout this topic to my Mom, and she mentioned that, and the blood tests.. she quit breeding shortly after that.. her roomie who claimed she owned said horses wasn't paying much for their care, so Mom had to sell them.. funny she paid the shipping for the bug fancy auction in Texas, and didn't get a penny in return, the little money she got from the sale (and all got good homes, she still hears from the owners here and there.) went straight to the dead beat roomie.

But the liver mare (of 2 bay parents) tested as a bay, and the bay colt (of 2 sorrel parents) tested as a sorrel!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chestnut to chestnut is one of the absolutes in breeding. You can ONLY get chestnut as a result, so if you got something different, the sire is not who you thought. The bay x bay resulting in chestnut is very easy to explain. Both are EeAA in their genetics, resulting in that 25% chance eeAA chestnut offspring. E is black based, e is red based.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wish it were a different stud, blood tests came back as proper parentage. we were disappointed as we should have gotten a sorrel, and we had planned on one, and out popped a bay. The bay did test as a sorrel, not a bay! on the other the sorrel filly born of 2 bays, tested as a bay, not a sorrel.. neither looked what they tested as , both had to be Blood tested parentage to be registered one in the arab, and one the Tb registry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorrel and Sorrel ALWAYS produces sorrel. No if ands or buts about it. Genetically, its impossible to get something else.

~stars

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I can ever find the book, I will post the photos, but it did happen, and we have the blood tests to prove it.. he is a bay " Looking " horse, however he tests out as a sorrel!

Edited by kitten-kat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol He might have looked bay. But he wasn't. Redheads can have darker legs, but they are darker red, not Black like a true bay.

~stars

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

im sorry Eski, i dont want to go off topic BUT just in case someone is reading this about breeding i just want to touch on one small thing that Kitten Kat said about breeding a fine boned horse to a heavier bone horse (as an example) unfortunately its not that easy. it all depends on genetics and whos genetics are stronger, a fine boned horse can throw a fined boned foal- even when bred to a stud with heavier bone. two pretty heads can throw an ugly head from a throw back. i remember some folks freaked out when i bred a 15.2 hand mare to a 15.1 hand stud- foal= 16.1. it all a crap shoot. and unless you REALLY know what your doing and been doing it along time- its a coin toss. (that includes color) i bred two bays and got a black. i have a million stories i could tell. :happy0203: ok, carry on!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it all a crap shoot. and unless you REALLY know what your doing and been doing it along time- its a coin toss. (that includes color) i bred two bays and got a black.

I think that was the entire point of this thread is that it doesn't HAVE to be a craps shoot in regards to color. If you know how color genetics work, and ideally have DNA tested, there IS no craps shoot. Bay x Bay = black is easily explained and not particularly uncommon. Aa x Aa = 25% AA Bay, 50% Aa Bay, 25% aa black. I know that my own chestnut mare will NEVER be a candidate for a black Arabian breeding program, as she is AAee. Can only produce Bay or Chestnuts (or dilutions thereof).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DISCLAIMER: I AM IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM ATTEMPTING THIS.. I AM JUST CURIOUS.

Okay... so the old adage " you can't breed for color" seems outdated to me. With all the DNA tests and color possibilities out there, is it not possible to get the color if foal that your looking for?

The answer is that it is getting easier and easier to plan on a specific color and/or pattern. there are still some unknowns in paint patterns and app patterns but those genetics are getting sorted out as we speak.

Still not 100% when you add pattern to color, but I believe that if you have genetic testing done that you can certainly greatly improve the chances of getting what you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find this very interesting. The farm I worked for just had a sabino palomino colt born out of a bay mare and by a palomino stallion. The BO was saying "Oh, I didn't know the mare had a chesnut gene" and I was like.... :confused0024: what's that even mean!? lol. We had to study genetics in college, and I was always soooooooo confused. It's just one of those things my mind will just not wrap around, I think if the AAee stuff had letters that stood for the color instead (BBblbl" or something like that...I'd probably almost kinda get it!? Idk.

And BO and breeding manager are always talking about F1 and F1b's and F2's with the dogs...I just nod and smile and train the horses...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that was the entire point of this thread is that it doesn't HAVE to be a craps shoot in regards to color. If you know how color genetics work, and ideally have DNA tested, there IS no craps shoot. Bay x Bay = black is easily explained and not particularly uncommon. Aa x Aa = 25% AA Bay, 50% Aa Bay, 25% aa black. I know that my own chestnut mare will NEVER be a candidate for a black Arabian breeding program, as she is AAee. Can only produce Bay or Chestnuts (or dilutions thereof).

You are exactly correct about the point of this thread.. and thank you for explaining it.

I am with Serah on the genetics of it all.. it makes no sense to me.. lol. I will leave color combos to the experts!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this