steph1

Animal Breeding.

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I don't breed my animals. Everyone but meshia (needs spaying never had puppies) and Cassie (new kitten to young) are all spayed and or neutered. All my previous animals were spayed or neutered. It was just something ingrained in me. While I don't agree with willy nilly just cause breeding I don't bash or aggravate them by you should spay neuter. I do agree vets charge to much and people with limited extra money have harder times affording it. I'm amung that group. But I've found resources to help cut the cost in over half. The humane society!

So with that said I think people need to not judge people as harshly as they are. At least half of the non spay and neuter people take the time to at least find responsible homes for their animals off spring.

Again I don't agree with not fixing mutts or non quality purebreds people will do as they please and blow off advice! Just a PSA!

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Now I do agree with not breeding mixed breed dogs. I bought a purebred akc female husky and bred her to my friends purebred akc husky. Had a litter of four and had them claimed by friends and family before they were even old enough to be weaned. In my area to find a purebred husky with blue eyes is nearly impossible. I sold the puppies for 250 each and it was nice to have that money to pay ahead a few months on my bills. However after one litter I decided not to breed again. I know I couldve made more money by continuing to breed because I never even got to advertise to the public but I just didn't want to have anymore pups, was to hard to sell them (emotionally on me lol)

Now horses, I dont believe that being purebred is the main deciding factor I think with horses it should be based on conformation, ability and attitude.

I'm not sure why I feel so different between purebred dogs versus purebred horses.... Kinda hypocrisy isn't it? Hmmmmmmmm

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i had a little trouble following your post, but i think i understand what you're saying (judge not lest ye be judged and all that). but i do have to say that when i encounter the "i can't afford it" line, my response is how are you going to be able to afford vet care in general? i KNOW spaying at certain clinics in southern california for males is a measly 60 bucks. and what is the basis for your statement "vets charge too much". there is the cost of vet school, practice overhead such as rent and personnel, materials (sutures, needles, anesthetic), so have you done that math?

most of the reluctant to alter animals types i've encountered are men--the women pet owners i've known seem a lot more open to the idea. and the men who are willing seem to think it's okay for the FEMALES, but not the males. i have met otherwise rational and intelligent men who somehow seem to think THEY are losing the family jewels.

i WILL get in your face if i know you and think that if you can't take the trouble to teach your dog some manners and discipline at least have the decency to your fellow pet owners to get your dog fixed. it's caused some tension at a couple of dinner parties, but the problem of "through no fault of their own" homeless and unwanted dogs, cats, horses, rabbits blah blah really makes me angry, and i don't like to be angry.

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most of the reluctant to alter animals types i've encountered are men--the women pet owners i've known seem a lot more open to the idea. and the men who are willing seem to think it's okay for the FEMALES, but not the males. i have met otherwise rational and intelligent men who somehow seem to think THEY are losing the family jewels.

Ditto. I cringe every time I see an intact male dog. I feel that dogs should be treated as horses. Only exceptional males should be allowed to remain unaltered. I just hate how often male dogs end up being aggressive and then everyone looks around like "Well how did that happen?"

I am the opposite of IA on breeding dogs and horses. I generally do not agree with producing unregisterable horse offspring (color breeds don't count as registerable to me). I think they are next to impossible to sell for anything even if they are awesome and have a great amount of training. Dogs on the other hand, if specifically crossed for things like health and temperament, seem to be able to increase in value. Golden doodles for instance are very popular and for good reason. You can get a mix of really nice traits while diminishing the results of years of too close breeding within some purebred lines (Goldens really come to mind on this). I have met a few and really like them better than the pure bred versions of either parent breed.

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You know?

I really don't give a crap who breeds their animals as long as they do it "right."

Proper facilities, proper health care, proper diet, taking responsibility for the lives of the animals.

If you are capable and willing to do all that, I'll usually keep my mouth shut.

Of course - proper health care does need to include taking into serious consideration conformational and health faults of the parent animals. That's where it becomes a sticky situation.

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I don't think any dog should be bred unless they have proven themselves in some way. There are too many unwanted dogs in shelters that need homes to breed for more "pets." I agree with Epona that there are many things to take in consideration before breeding, especially health. All genetic health tests for the breed should be done including OFA for hips and CERF for eyes. These tests don't cost much and help ensure that any offspring does not pass more genetic diseases into the breed population.

When looking for a breeder the first thing I look for is WHY they are breeding. For example, a few months ago when searching for my Border Collie puppy I only contacted breeders who bred to better the breed. Because Border Collies are herding dogs, I was looking for a breeder who not only worked their dogs but competed in the Open level of USBCHA. If I had been looking for another breed of dog, say a Golden Retriever or lab, I would search for a breeder who competed in AKC shows or field trials. Next I would check the OFA for records of hips and yearly CERF for eyes. Breeding practices are also important as well as how well the puppies are raised and socialized.

I guess my point is, just because two dogs are purebred does NOT mean they deserve to be bred. Especially if no genetic testing is done. In my opinion, it is so important to support breeders who breed for the right reasons and NOT buy from backyard breeders who are only looking to make a buck.

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I don't think any dog should be bred unless they have proven themselves in some way. There are too many unwanted dogs in shelters that need homes to breed for more "pets." I agree with Epona that there are many things to take in consideration before breeding, especially health. All genetic health tests for the breed should be done including OFA for hips and CERF for eyes. These tests don't cost much and help ensure that any offspring does not pass more genetic diseases into the breed population.

When looking for a breeder the first thing I look for is WHY they are breeding. For example, a few months ago when searching for my Border Collie puppy I only contacted breeders who bred to better the breed. Because Border Collies are herding dogs, I was looking for a breeder who not only worked their dogs but competed in the Open level of USBCHA. If I had been looking for another breed of dog, say a Golden Retriever or lab, I would search for a breeder who competed in AKC shows or field trials. Next I would check the OFA for records of hips and yearly CERF for eyes. Breeding practices are also important as well as how well the puppies are raised and socialized.

I guess my point is, just because two dogs are purebred does NOT mean they deserve to be bred. Especially if no genetic testing is done. In my opinion, it is so important to support breeders who breed for the right reasons and NOT buy from backyard breeders who are only looking to make a buck.

back OT, if you can't "afford to fix your dog" or other animal (think principle), i don't care how good-hearted or intentioned you are, you are NOT FINANCIALLY in a position to have an animal so get yourself a plastic lawn ornament. fido's sick?! he WILL get sick at some point, because everybody does.

EPONA, i appreciate your point, but IMHO, it's a wee bit shortsighted when it comes to responsible financial planning. "don't lean out so far out the window when there are other lives at stake".

and whoever "makes money off selling the pups for 350 dollars?" what? no hip/eye testing of the parents? no innoculations health checks worming for the pups? no socialization? you CAN'T make money at that price point if you do all of that and make a reputation for yourself. people just want blue eyes or a snout so short that the dog can't breathe properly? YUCK--sounds like the paint breeding machine a couple of years ago (we just care how the animal LOOKS!) :sick: .

a well bred working BC (and nobody who wants a working dog and not a "barbie collie" gives a rat's arse how they look, so go jump off a cliff AKC), whose parents are the real thing (not just theoretically) here in germany (and in wales where they originated) costs euro 1000, or around 1500 bucks. momma and poppa PROVED themselves before they were allowed to find "time for love", but the breeder also ran all the health tests on parents and progeny and invested the money and time to make sure the pups can go out there and face the world.

it's expensive when done RIGHT, to quote EPONA, and fair to all those lives that will be brought into this world whether the poor craytures want it or not. one of my best friends breeds rhodesian ridgebacks in the south of france. her pups go WORLD-WIDE, sold one year in advance of their conception because she only breeds once every two years, and those pups cost 3500 bucks, because of the time, expense, medical care, and love she invests.

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Well I got my female husky as a three year old and she already had all her testing done, I did vaccinations at home, myself for five bucks a shot and worming at home. and since when does socialization cost money?

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I have a red border collie female and a blue merle border collie male, they work every day on the ranch with me. They listen have the best manners and know how to work cattle with me and do as they are told. They are going to go get all of the tests they need done more for me because i want to know if they might have problems later on. Now that being said they work on the ranch but i danged sure dont have time to go showing them. If in 2 years lets say( because I dont have any plans to do it right now) I bred them does that make the puppies worth less money?

That is were I get a little confused everyone wants dogs that earn the right to breed (which I do agree with) But seems like they only earn it if they are shown. I live and work on a ranch I am a rancher and thank goodness my job lets me be out here but to run around showing dogs I just don't have time to do that even though I would love to do agility with my female there are no close places to make that possible. So IF it were to happen and they are tested for everything under the sun and the tests come back clean does that mean the puppies aren't good just because the parents work here and aren't shown?

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I have a red border collie female and a blue merle border collie male, they work every day on the ranch with me. They listen have the best manners and know how to work cattle with me and do as they are told. They are going to go get all of the tests they need done more for me because i want to know if they might have problems later on. Now that being said they work on the ranch but i danged sure dont have time to go showing them. If in 2 years lets say( because I dont have any plans to do it right now) I bred them does that make the puppies worth less money?

That is were I get a little confused everyone wants dogs that earn the right to breed (which I do agree with) But seems like they only earn it if they are shown. I live and work on a ranch I am a rancher and thank goodness my job lets me be out here but to run around showing dogs I just don't have time to do that even though I would love to do agility with my female there are no close places to make that possible. So IF it were to happen and they are tested for everything under the sun and the tests come back clean does that mean the puppies aren't good just because the parents work here and aren't shown?

I feel that working dogs such as Border Collies are a bit different. The "real" border collies are bred as working dogs, NOT as nick pointed out "barbie collies." Therefore they should be bred for their working ability not on their appearance or even agility skills. There are many breeders who breed for agility or conformation, but in my opinion that is not a good reason to breed a Border Collie. I would have no problems with you breeding your two working dogs if you believe they have valuable skills to pass on and perhaps have an outsider evaluate their working ability as well. It's easy to get kennel blindness when you love your dogs. Most breeders compete their dogs in USBCHA trials which is very similar to working your dog at home. It's not expensive or competitive really. It's a lot of fun for both you and the dogs. I got my current puppy from a well-known Border Collie trainer, handler, and judge who competes in USBCHA trails. He has a ranch at home where he works his dogs just like you. But before he breeds them, he makes sure his dogs can pass a simple "test" if you will.

Anyway, I don't necessarily agree that dogs have to be shown to be bred, but they should have proven themselves in SOME way. In your case, as valuable working dogs cowgurlup1983 :smilie:

I also completely agree with nick that a good working dog is worth his weight in gold.

Edited to add: I would not breed if you're focused on how much money you can get for the puppies. Also, most ranchers want to stay away from candy colors such as blue and red merle. You very rarely see top working dogs that are anything other than black and white. It's the agility folk that are interested in the colors. Colors also do not make puppies any more valuable. There's not a lot of money to be made in average working border collies. I kind of disagree with nick there. Most ranchers aren't willing to pay more than $500-$800 for a working dog as a puppy. Started dogs, however, go for thousands. Usually it's the sports and conformation dogs that are crazy expensive!

Edited by Foxy-Lady

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IF I ever let them breed it would be based on their ability to work, work ethic and temperment and of course their tests by the vet. I also beleive that border collies should be breed on their ability to work and not their conformation. Now I'm sure if you aren't careful you can get a conformational train wreck but I truely believe if they can work and have a good work ethic they are worth their weight in gold. I'll see if I can find any of those trials around me as I've never heard of any. And maybe during the slow season I can see about going.

By the way IF I ever letmy two borders breed it will be at least 2 years down the road.

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Putting on flame suit....

None of my coonhounds are registered or fixed. (well except one, who is my house pet.) We use them for bear hunting, they are kept intact because IF they are excellent hunters, they WILL be bred with another dog that will compliment their abilities or flaws, they are also more intense hunters when they are left intact. Our hunting crew has probably close to 35-40 dogs between all of us. These pups are highly sought after by other hunters in our area/state because of the reputation of the dogs, and while they may not be registered, they have proven themselves as breeders because of their superb hunting ability, there is a whole lot of thought put into these breedings, and we don't just breed to breed. And the crosses seem to be less susceptible to illness, allergies, and are overall healthier than their purebred counterparts. Our "mutts" hunt better than, well, all of the purebreds we know, is it wrong that we would want to continue breeding superb hunters? I don't think so.

Under normal circumstances I say spay or neuter, and my house pets are fixed, but I can't stand when people want to make everyone conform to the same cut in stone rules. Same goes with ranch horses, may not be shown in an arena, but heck if they aren't proven enough to continue their lines...

JMHO

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No, when done right, you will not make a profit off of breeding. That's the point though, doing it right. Most people seem incapable of this.

:confused0024:

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and since when does socialization cost money?

socialization costs way more than money, it costs "time" which as we all know you can't "buy".

i understand that fido belongs to YOU (generic you) yada yada, and as the owner you are absolutely the one who calls the shots when it comes to fixing or not. the phenomenon that makes me see red everytime is anthropomorphizing your dog (endowing it with human values). a dog is a dog, and we need to honor and respect a DOG's needs instead of transferring our own as humans.

i had a conversation with a nice lady last night regarding her 1 year old b.c./aussie mix whom she needs to adopt out due to lack of time and energy (she has 6 year old twin boys and an 8 year old on top plus a job), and the subject of castration came up. she was a bit leery of it, asked if that wasn't a bit inhumane. my response was that this dog should not be bred--he is a pet, albeit a nice pet, but in the grand scheme of things there are ENOUGH nice pets out there that need homes and he doesn't need to add to the overflowing pool. so therefore, did she think it was fair to perpetuate an itch that he will never be allowed to scratch? she said she'd never thought about it that way before, and i think she has PLENTY of company.

i don't know what the market is like in america for stock dogs. in wales, scotland, ireland and england there is a busy trial season, and a lot of prospective buyers attend to check out who is doing what, so a lot of breeders of working dogs (who actually do work) take the time to compete. there is a general scorn in this crowd for conformational or color standards; they could care less if a dog has two heads--as long as it is brave and serious about his work, has power (and is quick) that's all that counts.

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check around for mobile units is what we have....non-profit organizations for spaying/neutering ,the vets volunteer thier times /services

when i called our vet to have the cats,all 3 females to be fixed, cost was 90.00 per cat. well i have to watch my budget, wasn't that i could't afford it, or make arrangements for payments.. it would have left me more on a tight budget,.

human society wanted 75.00 per cat..

so I called the mobile unit that does our county.... they go to each town once/twice a month...

cost 45.00 per cat....pain reliever an extra 5.00 dollars each....

guess where I took them...mobile unit. to the meeting place in the town closest to me.

they also give shots for rabies,etc... which were very low....

Edited by Ann Wheeler

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I spend a lot of time, effort and money on spay/neuter in my own community. Either with trapping/fixing/releasing the feral cats, by making sure every animal I place is fixed, and by offering help to those who need it (transport, fees, etc).

There's a low cost clinic nearby that will fix/vaccinate Pit Bulls for only $50. Other dogs start at $100 depending on weight, and that includes all inoculations. If you can't afford it, they will do it for free or a very reduced rate. I bring all my animals there, it's just common sense since they offer the best rates and the money goes back into the program.

I believe there are few animals that deserve to reproduce. Your backyard Pit or Chi? No. It's very cultural, though. Around here most guys (why is it always guys?) equate neutering their dog to neutering themselves. They don't consider it macho to walk around with a fixed male dog.

A co-worker is on his second 3rd Pit Bull. A female he bred until she was too old, then dropped her off at a shelter. The second was an intact male that was marking in the house and becoming aggressive towards his kids. He's on his third, another intact male, who, surprise surprise, is getting more aggressive. He doesn't train or socialize them at all. His reasoning? He's in a tough neighborhood and needs his dogs to be mean--having them fixed will make them too docile.

Did I harangue him at first? Ayup. Then realized there was no way I was going to change his mind. I told him not to bring up the subject of dogs because it's just going to end in an argument and told him to tell me when he needed to find a place for PB#3 and I'd help him with rescue contacts. More likely then not, the dog will need to be PTS, it really never stood a chance.

Generally, I tend to make my points, offer to help and if it's refused, so be it. At least I tried.

I have never bought a cat or dog from a breeder. I never will. Several reasons--I have no need for a purebred dog, all I want is something with a short coat, good energy and medium size. I don't want a puppy, my latest was 2-3 when I sprung her from the pound, the one before that was 12. I cannot afford the price tag on a well bred dog and I refuse to support the BYBs. At least if I pick up a pound/rescue animal, I know the money is going towards something I believe in not in someone's personal pocket.

If you are responsible and can managed to keep your intact animal from getting knocked up (or doing the knocking...) that's great. But you have to admit the general population? Not so responsible, at least in my experience.

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I spend a lot of time, effort and money on spay/neuter in my own community. Either with trapping/fixing/releasing the feral cats, by making sure every animal I place is fixed, and by offering help to those who need it (transport, fees, etc).

There's a low cost clinic nearby that will fix/vaccinate Pit Bulls for only $50. Other dogs start at $100 depending on weight, and that includes all inoculations. If you can't afford it, they will do it for free or a very reduced rate. I bring all my animals there, it's just common sense since they offer the best rates and the money goes back into the program.

I believe there are few animals that deserve to reproduce. Your backyard Pit or Chi? No. It's very cultural, though. Around here most guys (why is it always guys?) equate neutering their dog to neutering themselves. They don't consider it macho to walk around with a fixed male dog.

A co-worker is on his second 3rd Pit Bull. A female he bred until she was too old, then dropped her off at a shelter. The second was an intact male that was marking in the house and becoming aggressive towards his kids. He's on his third, another intact male, who, surprise surprise, is getting more aggressive. He doesn't train or socialize them at all. His reasoning? He's in a tough neighborhood and needs his dogs to be mean--having them fixed will make them too docile.

Did I harangue him at first? Ayup. Then realized there was no way I was going to change his mind. I told him not to bring up the subject of dogs because it's just going to end in an argument and told him to tell me when he needed to find a place for PB#3 and I'd help him with rescue contacts. More likely then not, the dog will need to be PTS, it really never stood a chance.

Generally, I tend to make my points, offer to help and if it's refused, so be it. At least I tried.

I have never bought a cat or dog from a breeder. I never will. Several reasons--I have no need for a purebred dog, all I want is something with a short coat, good energy and medium size. I don't want a puppy, my latest was 2-3 when I sprung her from the pound, the one before that was 12. I cannot afford the price tag on a well bred dog and I refuse to support the BYBs. At least if I pick up a pound/rescue animal, I know the money is going towards something I believe in not in someone's personal pocket.

If you are responsible and can managed to keep your intact animal from getting knocked up (or doing the knocking...) that's great. But you have to admit the general population? Not so responsible, at least in my experience.

^^ ALL OF THIS. thanks milo.

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People that abuse animals should go to jail. That abuse includes dumping unwanted animals to fend for themselves.

The answer to the unwanted, animals and people, lies not in controlling breeding but in punishing/correcting abuse and neglect.

Period. The End.

If I want to breed my animals, I will. If I want to make money breeding my animals, that does not make me a bad person OR say that I am not doing it "right" because I am making a profit.

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I have had a few litters here as well.

I found homes for everyone of them as well. One went as far as Ontario ( 12 hours or so away from me )

I have also came to the point with one couple where I had to flat out tell them NO they couldn't have one.

I heard a discussion in the background about them living in an apartment, I asked if their landlord allowed dogs. No they said, but we will make the dog be quiet.

Not to mention that they have never had a GSD before. I told them politely no, that I didn't feel as if they would be able to provide the home that the breed needed as well as the understanding that they need.

I don't feel bad for each of the litters I had. I found homes for them, and today I can call and get a good report that they are doing well.

I have even been asked if I am going to have a litter this year. I have said no..not that I don't want to? But I think it's the right thing to do at this point in time. Not just for Matrix, but for me!

I have shared many pics of my GSD's with you all and you have seen how they turned out.

:ph34r:

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I would love to have a litter someday. But my dogs are certainly nowhere near breeding quality. My smooth collie is probably the closest, but I bought him on a spay/neuter contract. If I did choose to breed a litter myself, I would definitely be doing a lot of research into that particular breed, lines, and health issues before even lookin at potential breedstock. Then I would work on getting the dogs at least some sort of working title as well as general and breed-specific health testing.

As for people who just breed to breed. No, I really don't care for it. But, I do also understand that the general public does not do a lot of research ahead of time and can't always afford $1000+ for a puppy. I would rather they go to a hobby breeder that really cares for their dogs and bred them together than go to the nearest pet store and by a puppy that most likely came from a puppy mill. But then again, they are assuming responsibility for that puppy and any health issues that may crop up due to that breeding style.

When it comes to horses, I am pretty much the same way. I would much rather see people breeding horses that actually work than just breeding pasture pets willy nilly.

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Now I do agree with not breeding mixed breed dogs. I bought a purebred akc female husky and bred her to my friends purebred akc husky.

I think that mentality is all too common, and unfortunately part of the problem. Two purebred animals doesn't automatically equate to "let's breed them!" I have a 13 year old male Doberman I got from a dobie rescue way back when I was in college (I'm dating myself but he's been around longer then my children, by a LONG time), who is a von Willebrand's dog and the product of the backyard breeding - "purebred+purebred= let's breed!" mentality. Of course they didn't bother to test the animals for genetic soundness. Never crossed their minds. They saw dollar signs.

My question is...other then the two animals being purebred, was there anything other then the money that was a good reason to breed?

I don't think any dog should be bred unless they have proven themselves in some way. There are too many unwanted dogs in shelters that need homes to breed for more "pets."

This I agree with, though I will qualify the answer further by suggesting that my idea of the animal "proving" itself is not necessarily because it is purebred, shows, etc. Later posts in the thread elaborate on this.

back OT, if you can't "afford to fix your dog" or other animal (think principle), i don't care how good-hearted or intentioned you are, you are NOT FINANCIALLY in a position to have an animal so get yourself a plastic lawn ornament. fido's sick?! he WILL get sick at some point, because everybody does.

Sad truth, nick. My sister works for a vet clinic, and says the number of people who call in demanding immediate care for poor fido who's had a bleeding mass protruding from his back end for a month now is simply staggering. She also notes that more often then not, the people most willing to do anything for their animals, including expensive surgery to retain the animals' quality of life, are usually not their wealthiest clients, instead people who are willing to take out loans and/or make payments every month, any arrangement the clinic will work out. On the contrary, there are a startling number of clients who will have an animal euthanized (in one case, even a long-time family pet) because it had become inconvenient, and they already had a sparkling new purebred puppy to replace it.

and whoever "makes money off selling the pups for 350 dollars?" what? no hip/eye testing of the parents? no innoculations health checks worming for the pups? no socialization? you CAN'T make money at that price point if you do all of that and make a reputation for yourself. people just want blue eyes or a snout so short that the dog can't breathe properly? YUCK--sounds like the paint breeding machine a couple of years ago (we just care how the animal LOOKS!) :sick: .

a well bred working BC (and nobody who wants a working dog and not a "barbie collie" gives a rat's arse how they look, so go jump off a cliff AKC), whose parents are the real thing (not just theoretically) here in germany (and in wales where they originated) costs euro 1000, or around 1500 bucks. momma and poppa PROVED themselves before they were allowed to find "time for love", but the breeder also ran all the health tests on parents and progeny and invested the money and time to make sure the pups can go out there and face the world.

I'm under the impression it is vastly different in America then it is elsewhere in the world, as Americans are fixated on appearance, and a tremendous number of breeds have been modified beyond even practicality because of the "look" that was being sought, and because that "look" has become so exaggerated, the animals has been rendered all but useless based on its original purpose (ie the English bulldog). I'm a Dobie owner and a huge fan of the breed, and found it very interesting that all across Europe, they have banned the alteration such as tail docking and ear cropping as it is unnecessary and at this point, simply a cosmetic feature.

I have a red border collie female and a blue merle border collie male, they work every day on the ranch with me. They listen have the best manners and know how to work cattle with me and do as they are told. They are going to go get all of the tests they need done more for me because i want to know if they might have problems later on. Now that being said they work on the ranch but i danged sure dont have time to go showing them. If in 2 years lets say( because I dont have any plans to do it right now) I bred them does that make the puppies worth less money?

That is were I get a little confused everyone wants dogs that earn the right to breed (which I do agree with) But seems like they only earn it if they are shown. I live and work on a ranch I am a rancher and thank goodness my job lets me be out here but to run around showing dogs I just don't have time to do that even though I would love to do agility with my female there are no close places to make that possible. So IF it were to happen and they are tested for everything under the sun and the tests come back clean does that mean the puppies aren't good just because the parents work here and aren't shown?

Ah here is the kicker. When breeding animals, I think the most important things to consider are the animals' breeding "credentials" as well as the "market" for said animals. Papered or not, ranch owners will always need solid working ranch dogs, thus, that's your market. If your animals are proven workers with great brains, personalities and work ethics fitting of the breed/environment, and you have people willing to pay for your ranch dogs, go for it. Show titles, confirmation blue ribbons and pedigrees probably won't amount to much working a herd of cattle. That's not to say some Australian shepherd breeders won't use their animals to work cattle as well, but who knows. I'd be very curious to see how many show animals actually "work," aside from exercising on a treadmill for muscle tone, or being therapy dogs. Because of the cost of the animals, their maintenance and potential for injury, I wouldn't think it would be that many, but you never know.

Like in all things, common sense is applicable.

I don't know that I agree that ONLY purebred animals merit consideration in breeding. Because of the onslaught of congenital illness due to inbreeding, many purebreds are plagued with high genetic risk. Mutts on the other hand seem to benefit from the mixed gene pool and if you're breeding working cattle dogs, and you've got two mutts that love their jobs and excel at it, and people interested in their progeny..so be it. There's no guarantee when it comes to genetics and that is always something to keep in mind.

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I've tried to stay out because I've offered my views on this more times than I care to count, but I did want to touch on one subject.

There are many, many aussies out there who are shown in conformation AND work. My dearest mentor raises Aussies. They are all conformation champions and have a string of letters after their names, an arm's length. They all have actual herding titles (NOT that HT "tested" crap), obedience, agility, rally, etc. Most have their MACH, a couple have there OTCH.

What does all that mean?? Well, you may or may not agree with "titles," but I see them as a way to validate the dog's credentials. This lady does not own a ranch or livestock. She has dogs and they are her life. She spends thouands and thousands of dollars on them each year. By gaining titles, that tells me:

A.) She is in it for the dogs, not for the dollars.

B.) She KNOWS the breed, the sports, the lifestyle.

C.) Her dogs are trainable

D.) Her dogs are BIDDABLE.

Biddibility, in my book, is just about the most important thing about a dog. I have a super-smart BC who is super trained. I can teach her just about anything. Is she biddible?? No. Not one bit. She has a very flippant attitude.

So there are show dogs, and then there are sport dogs. My dogs are sport dogs. We raise Border Collies, and as people on this thread have alluded to-- if you like politics, dabble in the BC world. Boy-howdy.

We use them on the farm on our sheep and goats. Do we trial? Nope. Haven't gotten to that point, mostly because our dogs ARE "candy colored" and the local herding club is predominantly BC and we were very firmly told we were not welcome.

So shoot me, I like my dogs to look different. I hate how they preach "who cares what it looks like-- can it herd?" but then I walk in with my blue or my blue merle and they all pass out. Sorry. Would you care to watch the dog, or will you show me the door now?

Anyway, we DO trial in obedience, rally, agility, etc. We dabble in flyball, lure coursing, disc. Our dogs are therapy dogs and visit the nursing homes weekly.

Again, is this proof of anything? Sure it is-- biddability. Is it enough to breed the dog? No. Then you have to stack on health clearances-- CEA, hips, elbows, patellae, eyes, thyroid, heart-- the list never ends. Then you have to check pedigrees, find a stud (or *****), check them out thoroughly, have puppy people waiting, find a vet to walk you through it, get her pregnant, feed her properly, whelp her out, weigh the babies, stay up for the first 24-48 hours, wipe puppy butts, supplement if necessary, take pictures, play with them, socialize in the house, find safe places to take them, socialize the pee out of them outside the house, begin training, take them to the vet, get them all checked, take them to the city to have their CERFs done, take them to the city to have their BAER test done, get them to their homes, invariably have that last pup that the people backed out on, raise it up to be a civilized citizen, repeatedly have people cuss you out for wanting the price you have set, train the dog through a dang CD, find a home for it/don't find a home for it, have a puppy come back because his owner died, the ***** needs her CERF again, etc. etc. etc.

It never ends. Ever.

Also *said in meek, squeeky voice*---- it's confOrmation, not confIrmation. We are judging them based on how well they confOrm to the breed standard.

Sorry, pet peeve.

Edited by PaintMyPast

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Also *said in meek, squeeky voice*---- it's confOrmation, not confIrmation. We are judging them based on how well they confOrm to the breed standard.

Sorry, pet peeve.

I always imagine animals described as having great confirmation as being Catholic. :angel3::crazy:

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People that abuse animals should go to jail. That abuse includes dumping unwanted animals to fend for themselves.

The answer to the unwanted, animals and people, lies not in controlling breeding but in punishing/correcting abuse and neglect.

Period. The End.

If I want to breed my animals, I will. If I want to make money breeding my animals, that does not make me a bad person OR say that I am not doing it "right" because I am making a profit.

Agreed, but what about the guy who breeds 4 litters a year and offloads them on Craig's List for $50, and then those people dump the unsocialized/unfixed dogs at the pound once they get tired of dealing with the animal? It's not necessarily abusive, just poor animal ownership.

In your mind you're right and not a bad person, but some people might think otherwise. There are levels of "bad". Quite honestly, I think it's horrible to breed animals with no real purpose. The whole "I can, and I will, because I wannnnt to" mentality is rather poor reasoning.

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Some of my best friends working dogs are aussie/heelers. He sells them to ppl who run cattle or rodeo bulls, by golly the best dogs i have seen are mixed aussie/heelers. Nothing wrong with mixing CERTAIN breeds. Its the lapapoos(labs, poodles) and such that make no sense at all.

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Is being someones loved pet no longer considered "purpose"? My Chow is no show dog; she doesn't 'work' at anything but holding the carpet down and going for walks with me. She's still the best $100 I've spent in years.

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of course that's a purpose! sometimes a dog can make a HUGE difference in somebody's life by being a non-judgmental, affectionate and fun companion. that doesn't mean they need to be bred though--there are ENOUGH of this type of dog out there desperately in need of homes.

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