*Smokum*

Pics After Barefoot Trimmer Today **updated New Pics 2/18/13 Page 2**

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The barefoot trimmer was out today to trim Smokeys feet. Here are some pics of after.

LF

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RF

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Sorry the little one started crying so I was in a hurry and only able to get front pics, I'll get pics of them later tonight.

She was very nice and very informative. She says hes mildly laminitic and wants me to lock him in a small area during the day and can let out on full pasture at night when sugars are in the roots and not leaves. He's got deep thrush on all 4 and is going to email me a creamy recipe for that to inject into crevasses, but surface area looks good as I've been treating with TB. She said he's transitioning so his feet will look wonky while she re balances them.

Suggests I use boots for riding on any gravel, either Swiss or Renegades, but highly suggests Swiss while he's transitioning because they're less expensive, as he'll be changing sizes quite frequently for a while, and she can trim/adjust the Swiss boots better than the Renegades.

She said she got into barefoot trimming after her mare foundered and she didnt like what her vet and farrier were telling her.

4-5 week trim schedule for now, then if everything looks good 5-6 for winter, 4-5 for summer again.

Edited because I labeled the pics wrong... Oopsy

Edited by Smokum

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I'm not impressed at all. When I looked at the first pic I honestly thought it was a "before" shot. She won't get ahead of those hooves by trimming that timidly every 4-5 weeks. IMO - heels could have been brought down more, bars need more attention, and the toes need to be rockered so they come back. She left all that toe sticking out front with leverage on it. Not good at all. Frogs should have been cleaned up better too, I see lots of thrush hiding places.

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I dunno, I personally like this trim. The timer followed the foot well for a horse just coming out of shoes. His heels couldn't be brought down anymore without hitting live sole IMO, nor could his toe be brought back without making him sore. The only thing I would have liked to have seen was a stronger bevel especially at the toe. But for this horse to come out of its horrid shoe job I really think this was a smart move from the trimmer. No use in laming a horse just to make the foot look like its supposed to. I agree the frog could have been cleaned up, but if you keep up with your thrush buster applications and just take a pair of thin scissors and cut off the flaps he will be fine until your trimmer comes out next. The creamy recipe she is talking about is probably pets goo. 50/50 mix of triple antibiotic ointment and athletes foot cream with 1% chloro... something.. lol

Did you trimmer say anything about using pads to help build up the back of his foot more? Is she going to help you measure and fit for some boots?

Edit to add: When I had posted back almost 2 years ago on my guys first barefoot trim, I was told it was too conservative on the boards, I got in touch with someone who was on the boards who came and "fixed" the conservative trim and my horse was severely lame for several weeks. It was a huge fiasco. Yes the trim might have been conservative but I say give it a few trim cycles, it could be that your trimmer was a little hesitant on really tackling the feet because she has never once trimmed this horse before. She may all ready know what she will be doing with the next trim and being more aggressive, she could also not have wanted to be aggressive since you don't have a pair of boots to use yet. There are many factors as to why the trimmer chose to be conservative, I wouldn't let this first trim be the deciding factor on keeping the new trimmer or not.

here are the before pics from her other thread.

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Edited by storey

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Looks like a decent trim and that you are off to a good start on the pathology. The key is going to be working that trim with lots of movement and diligent thrush care. Got a couple of pastern turns in bone, but the trim is nicely balanced for it.

The frog is tiny and heels contracted and the heels have been jammed up badly in the past. Looks like he's coming out of a badly balanced trim (possibly wedge pads?) in the past (coronary band wavy) and that a lot of torque has been on the hoof, hence the white foot showing the bruised line on the wall. This is not laminitic related. The black foot will be the same, but won't show thru the darker color. The raised hump of the coronary band above the heels and the darker more serious bruise on the heels below it are evidence of the badly jammed heels.

The thrush care will get the frog blooming and widening, the boots and pads will promote concavity and put the frog to work and help also to spit thrush out. I'd just soak a cotton ball in TB and jam it in the central sulcis crack and let it stay for a day, then clean and replace it. Its not good enough that the thrush on the surface looks good, down at the bottom of that crack, its still eating away at a deeper level in the hoof, (infection thriving) while you think everything looks good on the surface. You need to clean deeper, using a toothbrush or better, a Q-Tip (less invasive if sore) and clean well down at the bottom of that crack to get the leading edge of infection going deeper and stop it. You may be surprised to find that there is more to the depth of that crack than you imagine and the Q-Tip is great for helping you find it and get the infection down there. That crack will get shallower as it heals and won't hold that cotton ball anymore, and you are starting to get somewhere. That crack should not be a crack going up into his heels bulbs, but merely a thumbprint depression on the top/rear of the frog. The cotton ball will help you medicate longer in the depth of that crack and keep dirt out, boot or not. As that crack heals, the frog will also and be higher, twice as wide at the back and the heels widened with it. (the heels won't be wrapping around the back of the hoof anymore. The boots and pads are going to work on this as well.

As for laminitis, I'm not seeing any anger or stretching of the white line, ridges in the wall and things look good, but all I have are these pictures and you don't want to go there, so good advice regardless. I go nocturnal in the summer and even pull them off the grass occasionally, depending on the weather and stress to the grass. 6oz. of fresh ground flax/day will help with any inflammation and trace minerals are also important, along with keeping the sugar and starch down.

It takes until 11pm for the sugar to get down in the grass, and should be back in the dry lot by 9am. The closer you can pull off this schedule, the better, concerning the grass. If he's home, you could boot him at supper time and just throw him out later, for example. I would look at both boots, measure the hoof carefully and see which kind fits the best. The best fit will make wearing the boot less inclined to twist, fall off or be too tight or rub and make living with them easier.

So, think lots of movement and good thrush care. Once the thrush is gone, the movement will continue to develop a stronger hoof. You'll go from the trimmer trying to help free up the pathology, to the hoof strongly telling her what needs to be done instead...the tables will turn and transition will fly along quickly. Keep taking pictures, its an amazing journey!

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I do know she was being conservative with his trim, she gave me a whole history of the first group of farriers that studied the wild horses etc and how she follows Jamie Jackson? I think she said, who wants to do the transitions slowly keeping the horse sound, vs another in the group who would create a sterile environment and try to make the change as fast as possible, most of the time laming the horse up for long periods. Both worked, but doesn't want to do that, nor can most people keep their horses in sterile environments. (so just a history of how she thinks I guess) she stressed making sure he's sound and usable the whole time he's transitioning, the less sore, the more movement, which is good.

She thought his most recent laminitic episode was roughly 7-8 months ago judging by the wavy area grown almost out. I moved him to my home recently (2 months ago) and have since changed his feed (which he'll be mostly going off except what it takes to get supplements in) she suggests switching from mineral block to loose minerals, any suggestions?

About a month ago he was being attacked by horse flies and I found him dripping wet head to hoof galloping around pasture trying to get away. I have since had a fly sheet on him and he stays in during the day, but could the bruising be from the trauma of that? I don't know how long he was going, but it must've been some time because I've never seen him dripping wet like that, even when I was working him a lot and competing.

She's going to fit for boots next trim so I'll have those for riding. She also wants me to look up Pasture Paradise (or paddock paradise) it creates a "track" with an inner pasture to keep the horses moving, and incorporating different terrains into that track along with slow feeders. It looks interesting.

Also she said she didn't want to touch live sole, just help anything that's being sloughed off along.

Missy, he's never been in wedges in the 12+ years I've owned him. Also the pastern turns you see, could you go into more detail with that? How it's caused, I noticed this recently, those angles seem different to me, and by recently I mean I don't recall them being that way about a year ago when I left him with a family member while I was on bedrest.

RR has sloughing frog, I'll get pics today, sorry it got too dark before my LO got to bed, the busy holiday week wreaked havoc on her sleep schedule.

TB soaked cotton balls were inserted shortly after these pics were taken

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I agree with a conservative trim just coming out of shoes and for the weeks following. Always better to "First do no harm." But I'd shorten that conservative trim schedule even more. Like every 2 - 3 weeks, with just wee tweaks made.

This is how I handle horses with blatant pathology from previous farriers. I'm working on an OTTB and a Dutch Warmblood right now and have been doing conservative tweak trims every two weeks for the past six weeks. Both mares have never come sore and I'm seeing very positive changes. I have just extended their tweak trim to 3 weeks and we'll see how it goes. If they can hold the bevel without chipping when I go back out, I'll leave it at three weeks and see from there.

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I like it. Keep on keeping on and IMO, you are going to see changes no matter what just getting him out of those poorly applied shoes and getting after the thrush.

Be aware, I love Thrushbuster for many things, but if those holes become at all raw, stop using it and go with something like dry cow, Rameys goo or No thrush powder. TB in raw sulcus fissures is bad and makes for a grumpy pony. I also have had very great success simply using a couple teaspoons of Dawn in a spray bottle of water to really clean the crack, pat dry and then apply No Thrush or TB. Dont remember if this was posted on your previous thread or not.

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Here are the rears, sorry about the thrush buster, I wasn't thinking... I should've taken pics first then applied the TB.

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The trimmer said his rears were very unbalanced so she left wall on one side to compensate, and will hopefully get it corrected in the next trim or 2.

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Anyone else having trouble posting pics? It's posting the same pic over and over... Ugh I'll delete for a 3rd time and try again

Ok I think this is the only pic missing

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Edited by Smokum

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I honestly don't think this horse would have been sored by getting that toe off the ground by mapping the foot and applying a conservative rocker (at least the first 1/4" of toe would have been better than nothing). I just can't justify leaving it sticking out there, with zero beneficial breakover, pulling away at the already torn laminae with every step, for 4-5 more weeks. It's also going to keep pulling the heels forward and make decontraction a slower process, especially considering that it doesn't look like she gave the quarters any relief. I'm all for being conservative, as long as it's going to help the feet get somewhere...IMO this trim won't.

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I went back and looked at the pictures again. I still believe this is a good trim for this horse. She left some heel to get his thushy frogs off the ground to preserve as much cmfort as possible as they open up and get rid of infection. The toe is taken back amply enough IMO also.

Just fyi, Jamie Jackson's method doesn't advocate beveling toes so harshly as some have been doing. See some discussion here on the AANHCP's facebook page https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=334064093283113&set=a.144256822263842.18605.143747122314812&type=1&theater

I think its a little of this and a little of that, depending on the whys and wherefore's and what protection can be provided for the horse artificially, but I still like this trim at this time for this horse.

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I would just like to say he is not sore at this time, and he actually has some pep in his step. He's still very ouchy on the driveway, which is a sandy gravely mix, but when he's on grass or sand he walks off normal. After those shoes were put on he was sore for a little over a week.

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Just wanted to give a little update here.

I can no longer keep a TB soaked cotton ball in Smokeys back feet for more than a few steps, they just fall right out. The CS in his fronts seems to have a bigger gap as well, and it seems like I can't push the cotton ball as deep and it shows partially now. Also I see a noticeable difference in anything moist on his hoof, it seems very dry, and hard as a rock. (maybe it has something to do with the dry, nearly 100 degree weather we've been having, it seemed like it was non stop raining this spring and his feet were perpetually moist and water logged)

So, I am so far, very pleased with his trim and the progress that seems to be happening in terms of thrush treatment.

I do have a question about the goo. I used it a few times and it seems like it melts with his body heat and within a few minutes is melted out of where I put it. Is there a better way to do this? Maybe I'm not doing it right?

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Since it's so hot, skip the goop since, as you see, it just melts and does nothing.

Get a can of Athlete's Foot Spray Powder (I like Tinactin or its generic equivalent). Every day pick & brush out them feets and then spray the snot out of 'em, holding the nozzle close and get in those crevices. Twice a day is even better. I like the Powder Spray because you can see where it's going.

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2 weeks after trim and over 3 weeks of thrush treatment. I've been stuffing cotton balls in his CS and getting under frog flaps every other day and on the off days spraying with Tinactin. His feet are dry dry dry and it seems like at the heel has opened up some, whether it's from thrush treatment, trim, super dry weather, or a conbination. I can see to the bottom of those holes now (hard to see in pic because of lighting, sorry)

Just wondering if there's anything else you see I should do? I've also been spraying with dawn, scrubbing, and letting dry before putting anything on feet every day.

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Your making great progress with the thrush! Looks like the fronts are getting close to needing a touch up trim tho. When is your trimmer scheduled to come back out?Thats pretty common the first 6 weeks or so after removing shoes IME. The foot and wall relaxes down as the coronary band levels out, sloughs old sole and seems to need touched up at 2 to 3 week intervals for the first little bit.

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She was supposed to email me with some dates roughly 4 weeks out, I haven't gotten an email yet so maybe I'll try giving her a call tomorrow. I know she was saying how busy she is, and she is charging me more because, as it turns out, she has no other clients in my direction. I'm hoping she is still willing to come here for one horse. She was supposed to send me some business cards in the mail so I could drop them off at a few barns/horse owners to try and get more people in this direction to make things worth it for her, and me.

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I would grab a rasp and just bring the wall down as it is deffinitely passed the sole. But thats just me. Looking much better though! =D

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If your horse will tolerate it before your barefoot trimmer comes out I would soak his feet in some water/apple cider mix, she will thank you for this as I can tell his feet are starting to get rock hard!

You can also have him stand in some wet grass for 10-15 min or soak his feet and you can take your hoof pick and start scraping his soles to help him exfoliate it. You can't do any harm with a hoof pick you'll just be scraping off white chalky sole. Then when your done pat dry with a towel or let him air dry and apply your thrush buster.

Once everything starts constantly staying hard look into the dry powder called " No Thrush" it really sticks to the foot even when its dry and gets into the cracks, I have found that sometimes the thrush buster can only go so far with treating thrush, it seems to tackle the really nasty stuff and tends to take longer on the superficial stuff.

Everything is looking good, I bet you feel proud of your self for all your hard work with those results!

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Thank you storey, she did mention to soak his feet before his next trim, they were pretty hard to begin with, she had some trouble getting dead sole off, I had to soak in wet grass for a bit while she was here

I gave her a call on Wed, she hasn't returned my message or emailed me with dates yet. Sure hope im not going to be left without a trimmer again, ugh. I'll give her through the weekend and if I still have not heard from her, I will have to search for another trimmer short notice :(

I will go give him a bath if I have time this afternoon or tomorrow and get to scraping the dead sole off. It is coming off chalky like you said when I pick his feet every day.

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Well, no word from Sarah the bf trimmer who came out for me, not sure what's going on. Kind of makes me angry that she can't even shoot me a text or anything, and if she just can't come this far, that's fine, but at least TELL me so I can find someone else. I called a different lady, hope she will be willing to come this way, it will be 4 weeks this Sunday.

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Right front toe can come back a bit more... BUT I never decry a conservative trim for the first time seeing a new client.

I'd like to see you have the trimmer come back in 2, maybe 3 weeks, but no later. Those toes need to be coaxed back and frequent trims is the way to Git-R-Dun! :happy0203:

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She's coming back out in 3 weeks. I noticed there seems to be A LOT more frog touching the ground with this trim, he was ouchy on the fronts being led back to his area but seemed ok on the sand/grass.

Is there any way to show me where his toe should be? Where his bones are (obviously just an educated guest without X-rays) in relation to his hoof wall and where it should be? I'm so interested in this now.

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I am SO glad to see those fogs opening up. Looking good! Still improvement to be made, but fantastic progress so far.

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