*Smokum*

Pics After Barefoot Trimmer Today **updated New Pics 2/18/13 Page 2**

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RR

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LR

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This particular trim his hoof is showing much more concavity than trims prior, it still seems weird in the rears, he walks (and always has) on the outside of his hooves. I may have a chiropractor out to see if he's out somewhere. I think he is making progress though, time will tell, I'm hoping there are even more changes when the old growth grows out.

This is definitely a learning process!

Any critiques are very welcome, explanations help me understand and of course there is so much we talk about during the trim its hard to remember everything.

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If your horse will tolerate it before your barefoot trimmer comes out I would soak his feet in some water/apple cider mix, she will thank you for this as I can tell his feet are starting to get rock hard!

You can also have him stand in some wet grass for 10-15 min or soak his feet

How long does a foot need to soak to be effectively softened? I have been doing hand-walking over gravel homework with my mare, but we have gone weeks between rainfalls here and her feet really don't exfoliate the way they need too under those conditions. I thought a soak would help, but how long do I need to soak to get softened up enough? And what purpose the ACV?

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Both rears have flares that have not been adddressed

The heels are not balanced, and on the left rear in particular, one heel platform is significantly ahead of the other one

Getting the heels and outer and inner hoof walls balanced, will help him land correctly

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Well its an improvement to what you started with for sure and alot of the problems you had are growing out, but still needs work. The trimmer could be more proactive and aggressive about getting back that toe, dressing the flare down from the top and applying a good bevel even into the sole there. I totally agree with mapping this foot. It is still run forward.

The heels are getting out of hand here. Besides being unlevel, they are being left too tall. The bars also need some addressing. Leaving the inside rear heels high can cause issues. They may wear that way but they should be left that way typically. It is often a sign of arthritis/soreness I believe in the hips or hock or possibly stifles...Something back there, I cant remember but a vet could tell you.

Edited by Trinity

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Thanks Missy for taking the time to do the picture, I really do appreciate it! Trinity, he does have arthritis in his hocks. I had him xrayed (hocks) at U of MN to try and figure out some very mild short striding he started exhibiting after a trim years ago, I had multiple vets and chiros out to find the cause and all said they didn't see anything :confused0024: and he looked to have a nice little pleasure jog, although it was noticeable to me, so I took him to U of MN for another full and but much more thorough lameness exam. He had no bony changes in his hocks but there was lateral and bilateral inflammation in both tarsal and metatarsal joint capsules. He was given 4 rounds of methylprednisolone injections over 2 years and after the last I decided it would be best to give him some time off to let his hocks fuse, as that was the other option besides chemically fusing or continuing expensive injections. His joint movement/flexibility is particularly less in his LR compared to RR. They checked his stifles and hip joints as well to make sure nothing was going on there but the issue was most definitely in his hocks.

I guess what do I do next? How would I go about asking my trimmer to do something different/be more agressive without making it seem like I'm telling her how to do her job? If you remember, I was having problems getting a trimmer or anyone to come out and she is really my only option now as the previous bf trimmer I used moved to CA.

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Point out what you see about the heel imbalance and it should make her get more careful and really look and sight down the hoof. That's usually just laziness or getting in a hurry or simply just not seeing the balance. Inside heels left high can exacerbate issues so she needs to be sure to get them level. You can let her know that its important due to his hock issues and she should become more aware and careful.

As for the toe, well...typically you are not going to be able to tell someone how to do their job but you can discuss it with her, let her know your concerns and maybe give her the ELPO mapping link and show her what your seeing. Be courteous, but advocate for your horse.

Id give her a trim or two to make changes but if she doesnt seem capable and she is your best option, you may need to get a rasp and tweek in between with some guidance. Most of us here learned to trim ourselves because of these kinds of issues but at least you have lesser problems than you had before.

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Hey everyone, My trimmer came out today and trimmed the ponehs. Here are a few of Smokey's front feet. I know people were not so impressed with the imbalance last time, wondering if its still there and what I can do about it. I have a rasp and hoof knife. We are still working on thrush, but I have recently employed white lightning soaks and NoThrush powder instead of TB. Getting movement has been tricky this winter so far, I have been throwing extra hay around so they need to move around more to eat it, in addition to the roundbale in the 1 1/4" Cinch Net.

LF (She says this hoof is farther along than the RF so far)

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RF

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You can see the bruising from around last June is almost grown out now :)

Thanks!

eta: If I need better pictures I can get them tomorrow, along with hinds. I'm sorry about the bedding there, I could not find my broom when I took the pics, I can sweep and take better ones on the swept clean mats underneath if you think it would give you a better shot for critique.

Edited by Smokum

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I get the feeling that if this toe doesn't start to come back, there's going to be pressure trouble on the hoof. The indented band on the wall going around the side on the side shot is like pinched in overhang from the much higher inside in the past. The front wall below the coronary band has a convex shape and a slight pinch in below the band where the pressure is travelling up to from the toe being way out there. The whole run of the band to the toe is slightly too steep to the front, by the long breakover and jammed up at the back by a heel that needs to come back a tad and quarter cleared in front of it. In my opinion, the toe should have come back 1/2 way of what it really needs to be. There's a fine line between being conservative and not promoting. As long as the bevel is not placed to get the torque off the toe, none of the other pathology will improve. This foot is settling in nicely, but the toe torque is still on and front wall looking worse. What's happening is that the flare is sloughing off the hoof and puddling around the hoof at the ground line, giving the front wall that convcave shape. Still pulling and needs to be released. I'm glad she's coming back in 3 weeks.Toe first, then the heel and thrush in the meantime.

I only had time to do one hoof, as I have to git to bed. I hope the pics turn out bigger than they are showing here....grrr. Will you be able to grab them and put in Photoshop and enlarge?

Edited by missyclare

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Thank you very much missy, so you still think that his toe needs to be beveled more into the sole? The pics you drew on were from last August I believe, so a good 6 months ago. I'm not sure the toe is quite that bad still, I think it's still out there as his feet are oval shaped still. I have the new pics from yesterday in the post just above yours, 2nd page, and I can certainly get better pictures with cleaner mats or bring him in the garage on concrete if that would help.

I guess my plan is to continue using this trimmer and tweak what I need to after, I'd like to be a little more aggressive getting where he needs to be than she has been.

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http://www.flickr.co...N03/8478185566/

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The first trimmer had a plan and it worked. The toe is back about half way, the sole is getting its ducks in order and the white line is tighter. The 2nd trimmer has forgotten the bars, left the growth on the heels, so they are longer than ever and more imbalanced than before. The coronary band is too shallow in its run because of it. I think this is the better hoof, though you could split hairs on the matter. On the heel shot, the red lines are a balanced trim, so still higher on the left side, including the heel. The black line is the length the heels really should be. Compare the side shots of my old and this one. What needed to be in my first one was not much, just heel and toe to come back. Now look at what needs to be done to the hoof now to find the same balance.

http://www.flickr.co...N03/8477126989/

Geez Louise! . This horse is on a lean to the left in both feet.

http://www.flickr.co...N03/8477097941/

Look at the box of red lines. That's the existing heel balance. You get the feeling of "down on the outside", which is what is happening. Also note the angle of the red lines on the heel pillars coming down to the base line. When he steps on those heels, the pressure pinches inward and upward with the direction of those lines. Heels can't widen, The shape of the heels should be like the white line.

http://www.flickr.co...N03/8477097069/

This is the RF again. Heel balance isn't as bad. Frog has receded to where it belongs. Look at the little windows produced on the heels between the red and black lines. What you should see in those windows is not the back of the heel pillars, but the tops of them staring you right in the face. That is the heel platforms coming back under the horse's descending weight. They need to come back more to be directly above the base line. That's how pulled forward they are, but a work in progress.

Sorry to say, I'm not happy with this trim. Keep trying to get that first trimmer on the phone. If you keep bugging her, she should call you back or find another. Was that 2nd one certified? No matter, I don't think she has the eye for balance. She hasn't improved the medial/lateral balance that the 1st trimmer had started and the heels have lost it. Toe is coming back, but heels need to come back with it. This will give the pressure effect of the forward/long heels/still forgotten bars, running into a toe that is trying to come back. The idea is to get rid of pathology, not add to it.

I will take a look at the hinds and remember the hocks tomorrow night. If you wish to try and tweak this yourself, better pics in the garage with fetlock hair in a pony tail (lol!) and on the heel shots, back up a bit from the hoof and lean forward a bit more. I need to see from the cannon, all the way to the toe and showing the whole run of the frog to show you best.

Edited by missyclare

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Thank you so so much missy! I will get better pictures tomorrow for you, hair tamed and all lol! Unfortunately that first trimmer has moved to CA so the current one is my only feasable option, downside of living in the boonies, she is certified with AANHCP. I didnt realize things were going so badly. I'm definitely going to invest in Pete Rameys book with tax return money. I just want my old guy to be comfortable and healthy.

I have half a mind to take some shots of my filly as well now, I don't want her feet wonky while she's growing.

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His hinds seem terrible to me, like both are sliding to the outside from leaving the extra wall on the outside because she wants to balance his foot better? He does have arthritis in his hocks and has always walked on the outside of his hooves, I just figure that is how he wants them right?

LH

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RH

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LOL I never realized fetlock hair could be so fun, usually its a pain when muddy season comes around. As if braids weren't feminizing enough, he got cute little fetlock ponies, good thing they don't care about how they look.

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How does this horse spend his days again and on what kind of surfaces? Is this a stalled horse? You have addressed his diet right?

Im also not happy with the trim. I think it could be more aggressive and promoting. All the feet are distorted and all the toes are too long/forward, and as a result so are the heels. The flare isnt being addressed either. IMO it will grow out with a proper trim.

IMO its time to map and get more aggressive casting if needed or booting.

Edited by Trinity

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He is currently in a snow covered dry lot area 24/7, which is completely rock hard/frozen sandy soil underneath, not stalled, but doesn't get much exercise right now because of winter. He is fed free choice orchard/timothy grass rounds in a 1 1/4" CC net (their smallest hole big round net). Fed supplements once a day that include SmartFlex Senior and SmartBreathe as well as 1/2c ground flax, and Dynamite Marketing's Dynamite for horses (a vitamin/mineral sup) Excel (digestive catalyst) and Dyna-Pro (liquid pre and pro-biotics) Free choice iodized salt lick in addition to free choice loose NTM salt, 2:1, 1:1, and Izmine minerals, also from Dynamite. I guess I feel I am doing my part with his diet, exercise could improve I admit, but other than that?? I have been throwing loose hay during the very cold nights in a bunch of different piles for movement.

I would love to be more aggressive in fixing his problems, and am open to casting/booting, infact I wanted my trimmer to fit him for boots last fall and really get after his feet, but she convinced me that most horses don't need boots in the winter because of the snow, and we would readdress booting in the spring when the snow is gone. I cannot afford the other trimmer I had talked to about coming out (if you remember I couldn't get a hold of her for the longest time and tried finding others willing to drive to me) it was going to be 140 just for him to drive here, not including the trim or any other expense, the others flat out said I was too far. So basically, my options would be to fire my trimmer and hire a farrier who will only come by once every 3 months, or keep my current trimmer, and tweak myself. This sucks :surrender:

So, I am going to read up on mapping more, I skimmed through it a bit when Smilie? suggested it.

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Why dont you forward the pictures to the trimmer in an email and let them know you feel the feet are ready for some better more promoting trimming and see what they come back with? Its clear in the pictures what the problems are and waiting till spring isnt doing anything but keeping you set back. Actually, I think the snow is the perfect time to utilize casting as its clean and cold out.

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I agree.Get on top of it, moving forward, less transitioning to the trim and soft ground to be nice in the interim. (snow and mud) Because suddenly, the way it works out, in the space of two weeks into the summer, the ground gets suddenly harder and is not so forgiving and the progress you've made already, will stand his hooves in good stead to keep moving forward instead of getting slapped sideways by it. Prepare for that hard ground that is to come.

I'm in heaven right now. Since everything is snow covered, the whole place has become a pasture paradise! The gate is open and hay is spread out the length and width of the field and they are moving on it. Since the days are numbered and things are melting, I'm going for it and making them go for it. My piles are out on the perimeter of the field in 1 1/2' deep snow and they are moving on it. When the snow is gone, ground thawed and delicate to hooves, and they are really penned up, believe me, I'm going for it right now. Things couldn't be better right now and I"m taking advantage of it. At this point in time, my old mare has never moved better for the movement she's getting. I'm noticing it. (sans any supplements) No movement because of winter? I'm seeing it in the very opposite. This is the time that the depth of snow makes them work and I don't have any grass to worry about and the growth is easily manageable. Come harder ground, the transition is already ahead of the game and its just a matter of toughening up to the hard ground that is to come...poised to fly in the face of it, cause its coming. So, don't think, no movement because of winter, go for it, prepare for what's to come, to laugh in the face of ALL of it. Layer up and go for a ride, the hardest part is getting out the door, the rest is history. :winking: Really, I layer up and I'm just groaning through the process and I get out the door and the next thing I remember is I've lost my hat, lost my mitts and 5 hours have gone by! It's the movement that makes everything come together and less you have to trim for, because the development is shining through.

I'm starting on the rears:

This trim will get good balance established and start you on the right road.

RR

http://www.flickr.co...N03/8501762629/

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The walls need to come down as shown, as well as pulling back on the heels to the white-lined heel height. A little more on the right side and a little more bar on that side too. Note the shape on the heel platforms that go straight across the whole hoof and so should they look like to your eye. Straight across and balanced to each other, just like that line. The bevel should leave a hair of the inside wall intact and bevel at a 45 degree angle from 10-2 o'clock, then fade out to only take the outer half of wall away on the quarters. Once you get this balance established, it will just be a matter of obeying the sole next time and getting shorter as the sole tells you. When the sole lets you get shorter, its also getting thicker and preparing for that hard ground ahead. The frog will come into work with the heels and the heel bulbs will become better defined/developed as well.

LR

LR Heel

LR Heel 2

A bit more heel and wall height to take on this hoof, as it is longer than the other.

I haven't gone into great written detail, but I have the feeling that you know the drill. If you have any questions, please ask.

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Thank you so much missy!!! I will print these out tomorrow and if I have questions I'll definitely let you know! As far as the movement, I closed off the pasture around Christmas when all our previous snow melted on top of the frozen ground, it was pretty much a frozen lake and wasn't safe, it was really nice out today and I feel there is more traction now than just a few days ago so I opened it up today and will throw a few flakes on the sled to spread around.

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LF3333

This foot isn't bad. I like the length that the walls are right now and they are even with the live sole plane. This hoof is much improved in straightening out from before. Left heel needs to come down a tad to balance and shape fixed on the right side, otherwise, ok and trim coming along.

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I'm having such an eye opener with these pictures..something is starting to make a lot of sense to me :)

Can you pass some of that on to me? :unsure: I have a really hard time grasping it, which is why I continue to pay a trimmer. :blink:

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