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again, it is your wording that make all the difference... you keep saying "withheld" and "withdrawing" when what you are talking about is, in fact, a suicide or legal, assisted suicide. you are talking about patients who are either in so much pain that you could cut their leg of and they wouldnt know, or patients who are in a vegetative state...

they REFUSE food. noone would deny them any food or drink if they asked for it.

if a doctor decided to "withhold" food from a patient and let that patient starve to death, that would be murder... torture and murder. if he complies to the patients wish to not be force fed he is standing at a moral dilemma where he is assisting someone with suicide. the doctor is not activly taking part in the patients death, so there is no law against it. they can not force feed someone against their wish (like with DNR)

my great grandmother did this. her mind was gone and her body was shutting down so she refused to eat. she did drink a little, but did indeed starve to death. how long a patient can last without food depends entirely on their general health... her heart gave in rather quickly... i am just shocked that you are not aware of this...

Once again, you better educate yourself especially if you do not have a will in place, as well as expressing your wishes.

I do not work in a nursing facility. Some of the patients I see are on their way out because of an illness in which they will never recover from. These patients are in a nursing home. I am the place the nursing home sends them to when they have MEDICAL ISSUES. Typically, these types of patients leave where I work and go to Hospice, if they do not pass away at the hospital.

There is nothing illegal about withholding water/food if the patient requests OR if the family of the patient requests (if the patient is not able to tell them what they want.)

Some of the patients I see ARE conscious and awake and able to communicate. Now, once food/water is withheld, they do eventually slip into a coma and pass away, but as the article suggests, many times the patient is very aware of what's going on. Sometimes they do not...in the case of alzheimer patients.

Did some of you not read the SECOND article I posted? The PDF file which is a medical journal for yet, another well known hospital?

I cannot speak for other countries, but here in the U.S., it is practiced throughout all states and it is LEGAL.

If you want to remain uneducated about what COULD happen to you as you get older, be my guest, but it is a very real occurance and happens everyday.

I use to think it was horrible too. Back when the Terri Schivao (SP) case happened. I said, how HORRIBLE of a thing to do to somebody...even if it in vegatative state. But then I researched and while I came to an understanding that it wasn't as bad as it sounds, I thoroughly did not understand it until I started working in the field.

I encourage you people to, instead of sitting here arguing with me, to research it for yourselves if you do not believe me.

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And this story is EXACTLY why I am telling you people you need to educate yourselves. This is not a game. I am just very surprised that more people are not aware. While there are people who DO think withholding water/food is cruel, I do not believe it is. BUT, to go against someone's wishes and as in this story here, do it way sooner than it needs to be done, is sad. It never is a bad thing to be prepared- just in case. If you don't want to be withheld from food or water, you best set in stone what you want to happen.

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Stanley was getting up in years having just passed his 85th birthday. He was an extremely active man with full use of his mental faculties, even in his advanced years. He even volunteered at the local YMCA, helping to clean up around the place and helped some troubled boys by speaking with them and spending time with them at the YMCA, watching them play. Some of them looked up to him like a Dad. However, Stanley had been diagnosed with colon cancer a few years before.

After several days of having difficulty urinating he found that he was unable to void (or urinate) at all. The urine made by the kidneys started to build up pressure in the kidneys and he became extremely agitated and was screaming in pain. His daughter called 911, and he was sent by ambulance to the hospital suffering from severe pain and an infection with a very high fever. Pain and infection are common when urine backs up into the kidneys.

Shortly after Stanley was admitted to the hospital, the doctors diagnosed his condition and performed a procedure (having placed a "stent" to relieve the pressure on the kidneys and allow the urine to drain out). The doctors gave him antibiotics for infection, and strong sedatives and pain medications to help calm Stanley down.

Stanley fell asleep from the strong sedatives and pain medications. His 65 year-old daughter, who had been appointed by Stanley as his Representative for the purpose of making medical decisions (in a Medical Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care Decisions), decided that Stanley was dying. She became convinced that it was only a matter of days before Stanley would actually die and told all the other relatives that Stanley was dying. The whole family came to the hospital expecting Stanley to die.

Stanley developed some nosebleeding after a few days in the hospital and swallowed that blood down into his stomach. When Stanley first tried to eat after waking up, he vomited the food up and his daughter saw blood. Stanley's daughter was convinced that the blood was somehow related to his colon cancer. When he asked for food again and said he was "thirsty," his daughter and some of the other family members decided that the blood in his vomit meant that he was dying, and he should not and could not be allowed to eat or drink anything, since "it might make him suffer more," they said. They "just wanted him to go in peace" and die without a prolonged dying process.

The doctors explained to all the family members that they did not think Stanley was actually actively dying at this time and that he would recover from the urinary obstruction and the infection that accompanied it. They said that it is normal to encourage drinking fluids after someone has a urinary obstruction relieved. Stanley began to beg for water and food. The nurses in the hospital sneaked him some water whenever they could, because they knew he was not dying right then (and it was appropriate for the recent urinary obstruction). However, the daughter continued to try to prevent Stanley from getting food or water. Finally, his niece, who had witnessed how Stanley was suffering from the lack of food and water, could not stand the situation any longer. She went to the hospital's ethic's committee and submitted a plea on Stanley's behalf.

Stanley continued to beg and cry for food and water, but as the days went by, he became despondent, sad and depressed. He began to withdraw and wouldn't talk to his daughter (who blocked all attempts to give him any food or water ... against his will). The hospital agreed with the niece's perception of the situation and to avoid legal liability, decided that Stanley had to be discharged from the hospital. He was much recovered from his infection, the pressure on the kidneys was relieved and the hospital did not want to be held responsible for Stanley's untimely death due to starvation and fluid deprivation. However, the niece was not in charge of Stanley's treatment. Stanley's daughter promptly arranged for him to be taken to a hospice facility nearby (Stanley had already been "certified" as having a terminal illness and eligible for hospice due to his colon cancer, but was not yet at the very "end-stage."

When the hospice nurses received Stanley into their facility, they knew he had terminal colon cancer and listened to the daughter explain how Stanley was dying right then and how he had become withdrawn and depressed. She told them repeatedly that Stanley was at the very end stage. The hospice nurses cooperated with his daughter's wishes (to "just let him go and keep him calm and comfortable" since they knew she was the appointed Representative for medical decisions. They withheld all food and water. They used standing orders to give him sedatives which he did not want and continued the use of some morphine which they said was for his comfort. The morphine and sedatives had the combined effect to make Stanley sleep almost all of the time, and when he did wake up, he was confused and disoriented. His doctor did not visit Stanley at all to assess his condition once he was in the hospice. The doctor relied upon what the hospice nurses told him.

Eighteen days later, Stanley was dead.

For more information about hospice and involuntary euthanasia, physician assisted suicide and other issues, vist our information center.

Questions to ask ourselves:

  • Was Stanley informed about his rights in this story?
    The federal law on hospice states:
    • Sec. 418.62 Condition of participation--Informed consent.
      A hospice must demonstrate respect for an individual's rights by ensuring that an informed consent form that specifies the type of care and services that may be provided as hospice care during the course of the illness has been obtained for every individual, either from the individual or representative as defined in Sec. 418.3.[emphasis added]

    "Informed consent" is a basic condition for the provision of all types of health care, hospice included. You and your loved one's must be informed of all treatment options and the hospice plan of care.

    [*]If a patient, even a dying patient, is still fully conscious and alert, is he the person who is authorized to make decisions about his own care, or does the appointed Representative (from the Durable Medical Power of Attorney) make the decisions?

    The alert and mentally competent adult retains full authority under the law to make his or her own decisions about what health care he wants to accept or what health care he wishes to reject. The Representative has no authority to act until and unless the patient is unable to communicate his wishes or is determined by physicians to be mentally incompetent.

    [*]If a patient is 70 years old, or 85 years old, or 100 years old, does that patient still retain the right to make his or her own decisions about health care to be provided to him, if he is still mentally competent and able to communicate his or her wishes?

    Yes, any adult patient of any age, who is fully mentally competent and able to communicate his own wishes is still able to make their own decisions about the health care services he will accept or reject.

    [*]Does a hospice have to follow the patient's own wishes specified in a legally valid Advanced Directive (such as a Medical Durable Power of Attorney form)?

    The regulations contained in the HCFA (now Centers for Medicare Services) State Operations Manual state:

    • "2087. COMPLIANCE WITH ADVANCE DIRECTIVES
      Under §§1866(a)(1)(Q) and 1902(a)(57) of the Act, a hospice is required to be in compliance with all Federal requirements in §§1866(f)(1) and 1902(w) of the Act, respectively, concerning advance directives. Specifically, a hospice must agree to maintain written policies and procedures with respect to all adult individuals receiving medical care by or through the hospice and must, at the time of initial receipt of hospice care by the individual from the program:
      o Provide the individual with written information concerning his or her rights under State law (whether statutory or as recognized by the courts of the State) to make decisions concerning medical care, including the right to accept or refuse medical or surgical treatment and the right to formulate advance directives;[emphasis added]
      o Provide the individual with the hospice's written policies and procedures concerning the implementation of such rights;
      o Document in the individual's medical record whether he/she has executed an advance directive;
      o Not condition the provision of care or otherwise discriminate against an individual based on whether or not the individual has executed an advance directive;
      o Ensure compliance with requirements of State law (whether statutory or as recognized by the courts of the State) concerning advance directives; and
      o Provide (individually or with others) for education of staff and the community on issues concerning advance directives.
      The facility is not required to provide care that conflicts with an advance directive. In addition, the facility is also not required to implement an advance directive if, as a matter of conscience, the facility cannot implement an advance directive and State law allows the provider to conscientiously object. Compliance with the advance directives requirements is necessary for continued participation in the Medicare and Medicaid programs."

    The hospice must abide by the wishes of the hospice patient. The hospice patient always has the right to accept or refuse specific treatments, medications or interventions. This is the law! A hospice is not allowed by the regulations to force a conscious and mentally competent patient to receive any medication against his will, and it is not allowed by the regulations to deprive a conscious and mentally competent (clear thinking) patient of food or water if the patient demands food and water.

    [*]Did Stanley consent to the withholding of food and water from him?

    [*]Did his daughter have the right to make decisions for him when he was fully alert, mentally competent and thinking clearly?

    [*]Does a hospice have the right to withhold food and water from a patient who is fully alert, conscious, mentally competent and begging for food and water?

    [*]Was this hospice care? or murder? You decide.

Need more information to make a decision? Take a look at the Federal law on hospice. Need to know what hospice is really about? Take a look at our hospice topics at the "main page" and learn all about what hospice is really about, what services your loved one can receive. We do not provide these cases to "scare you" but to caution you about such situations which do occur. We hope that by being fully informed, you will be able to prevent similar situations from interfering with the dignity of your loved one's last days with you. Be fully informed about hospice and you can prevent these types of problems from occurring.

What Can We do about this type of situation?

Knowing that your loved one has specific legal rights based upon the hospice regulations (see www.hospicepatients.org/law.html), and that the Personal Representative for medical decisions can also make decisions (if the patient is mentally incompetent or the patient is unable to speak for himself (due to coma, sedatives, or temporary confusion), the family can stand up for the patient and make a difference. Speaking up and supporting the patient's beliefs and wishes go a long way toward obtaining quality hospice care.

It is extremely important for the patient to have made an Advanced Directive document specifying what medical treatment he wishes, what types of procedures he does not want, and if he or she wants to be resuscitated if his heart and/or breathing should stop. He can explain whether he wants to be sedated or not, whether he wants pain medications or not, whether he wants to simply be let go or whether the hospital should try to resuscitate him. Normally, most hospice patients do not wish to be resuscitated and sign a "DNR" form (a "Do Not Resuscitate" form). Most hospices will not perform CPR or resuscitation, but only provide comfort care to manage the symptoms of the terminal illness.

If a patient who is enrolled in hospice, still wants to be resuscitated, often the ambulance would have to be called (EMS system) and the EMS staff would perform CPR, etc. If the patients wants resuscitation, he may wish to specify what type of resuscitation would be acceptable. For example, some patients will accept medications to help them recover, while others refuse medications. Some accept CPR but don't want to be on IV medications or ventilators. Some do not want feeding tubes, others do. Every one is different, and if these concerns are documented in writing, it would help make sure the patient gets better care which honors his wishes.

But what about this situation, where the person with the Medical Durable Power of Attorney was acting contrary to the patient's own conscious wishes? In this case, an attorney could have been contacted to get enforcement of the patient's own wishes, and to revoke the daughter's power of attorney for medical decisions (in the above story), and to transfer the power of attorney to another person who would respect the patient's wishes.

Informing the hospital or hospice that you are prepared to go to court to protect your loved one will make the hospital or hospice think twice about ignoring the patient's wishes! Actually filing a complaint against whichever health care agency was violating the patient's rights (and promptly givign them and the news media a copy) would also help the agency quickly realize that it is in their interest to provide the care which meets the standards of care, honors the wishes of the patient and not the person with the Medical durable power of attorney. The person with the medical durable power of attorney has no power to act when the patient is still conscious, and mentally competent!!

These types of situations do occur. Some patients can't get proper pain medication. Some patients can't get proper nursing care coverage for their symptoms out of control. Some patients receive improper care that actually harms them or makes things worse (mistakes by caregivers or hospice staff). If you wish to protect your loved one, you need to watch what is going on, be aware of your loved one's wishes, and if there's a problem, then act promptly without delay.

Speak with the hospital or hospice RN assigned to your loved one's care. Speak with the unit manager or hospice director. Speak with the hospice Medical Director. Communication is the best first step to resolving these types of problems. If communication openly made does not correct the situation, file complaints and give the agency a copy promptly. You may wish to get an attorney right away, get the attorney's legal advice and have the attorney fax a letter to the agency, explaining that legal action will be brought to protect the patient's interest (if the attorney so advises). Whatever you do, do not delay! If you have questions about the standards of care in hospice, please contact us or view the topics on hospice at our main web page.

Permission is granted to share these articles with others, to print them, or post them on other websites so long as credit

is given to the author and Hospice Patients Alliance with a link to this original page.

Back to Articles by Ron Panzer

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http://www.hospicepatients.org/starvation.html

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So you work were people in nursing homes go when they have medical issues? Ummmmmm hello....nursing homes ARE where the residents go with medical issues....half the residents are in nursing homes bc they have medical issues.....they receive hospice care in the nursing home and I'm having a terrible time believing that you believe the above story.....even if a family member is in charge of decisions they can't decide on their own AGAINST medical opinion that someone is dying and forbid them food and water, and the hospital kicked him out bc they were afraid of getting in trouble bc of her actions......don't believe it, but then I forgot like that commercial says they cant put anything on the internet that isn't true......

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MOST family members want to do good by their parents. However, you do get some that, you can tell, either do not care or just want things over and done with.

Yes, but nursing facilities do not TREAT medical issues. They may go there because they need care that the family cannot provide, but any medical attention they need, they are then sent to a hospital.

I am not going to argue about whether or not he was competent in the article. The thing I am arguing is that withholding food/water to a patient, even an alert one, DOES happen. Whether through the patient wanting that, OR the family wanting that...it does happen.

If one has alzeheimer's or some other issue that affects someone mentally, they better have it set in stone what they want to happen- otherwise, a family member could very easily have say so.

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even if a family member is in charge of decisions they can't decide on their own AGAINST medical opinion that someone is dying and forbid them food and water

Yup, they can if they have Power of Attorney, which, the person in the article did have. It is under the same law that allows someone to sign out AMA in a hospital. (Against Medical Advice)

And if a patient says I want food and water, but the patient is deemed not mentally competent, and a family member has a power of attorney... a hospital may deem that it is high risk- especially when other family members were contesting the withholding of food/water. It is a sticky situation that the hospital did not want to be involved in so they did the right thing to protect their business.

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MOST family members want to do good by their parents. However, you do get some that, you can tell, either do not care or just want things over and done with.

Yes, but nursing facilities do not TREAT medical issues. They may go there because they need care that the family cannot provide, but any medical attention they need, they are then sent to a hospital.

I am not going to argue about whether or not he was competent in the article. The thing I am arguing is that withholding food/water to a patient, even an alert one, DOES happen. Whether through the patient wanting that, OR the family wanting that...it does happen.

If one has alzeheimer's or some other issue that affects someone mentally, they better have it set in stone what they want to happen- otherwise, a family member could very easily have say so.

Have you ever been in a nursing home? They most certainly do treat medical issues.....

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I'm so confused... from the article you posted, it sure sounds like Stanley would disagree that starvation is a peaceful way to die. He was crying and begging for food and water, his niece saw him suffering, etc. Not a peaceful end, unless you count when he finally lapsed into a coma.

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Have you ever been in a nursing home? They most certainly do treat medical issues.....

Certainly minor issues...

But when you have anything that is serious, obviously, they would go to the hospital. Such as a significant change in behavior/confusion (could be high ammonia levels, among other things). Stuff that is major, they have to go to the hospital for.

A nursing home cannot diagnose. They need a doctor for that.

If a patient falls down and scrapes their knee, of course they can take care of that. If the patient then develops a serious infection that needs to be treated, they are sent to the hospital.

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I'm so confused... from the article you posted, it sure sounds like Stanley would disagree that starvation is a peaceful way to die. He was crying and begging for food and water, his niece saw him suffering, etc. Not a peaceful end, unless you count when he finally lapsed into a coma.

This is because he wasn't completely off food and water. If you read the article, it also states nurses were sneaking him in stuff, which is counterproductive.

Once the body stop receiving food/water completely, that is when the brain takes over and can shut down what it needs to shut down to allow death to come peacefully...in which our bodies our fully capable of.

But my point is, if this is not the way you want to go, then you best make sure it is written down, with a lawyer, somewhere. Otherwise, this can and does happen and there is nothing anyone can do about it if someone has power of attorney.

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Certainly minor issues...

But when you have anything that is serious, obviously, they would go to the hospital. Such as a significant change in behavior/confusion (could be high ammonia levels, among other things). Stuff that is major, they have to go to the hospital for.

A nursing home cannot diagnose. They need a doctor for that.

If a patient falls down and scrapes their knee, of course they can take care of that. If the patient then develops a serious infection that needs to be treated, they are sent to the hospital.

Wrong again....dr come to the nursing home....they might be sent to hospital for diagnosis but are then sent back to the nursing home, ivs, feed tubes, wound vacs, all kinds of major.medical issues are treated in nursing homes.....patients are never sent to the hospital for mood/behavior changes.....ever.....a phone call to the dr and a medication change is all done by the rns on.staff

Edited by Ivory Annie

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Admittedly, I didn't read the article blondy and QnP are talking about...however...if the nurses were "sneaking" him food and drinks, the poor guy obviously wanted to eat/drink...? unless you mean they were sneaking stuff via IV...I spose I should go read the article. sigh. lol

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I told myself I would stay away from HC, but someone told me about this thread and what Blondy was saying, so here I am and then I will eave. Blondy--I pray you never ever have to take care of one of my family members. Not ever. My Mother died at the age of 94 in my arms. She had no major health issues that we knew of. Notice I said that we knew of. Elderly, do not like to have their children worry about them so therefore, at times they will not tell you if they are in pain or if something is wrong. Mom had food in front of her whenever she wanted it, no matter what it was. She ate very little as she said it hurt to swallow. Let me tell you something, never ever would we have denied her food or water, even if she was lying in a hospital bed. How cruel to deny someone nourishment. Was she in pain? Of course she was but told no one and I watched her struggle to swallow with each tiny bite. She ate less and less each day for about a month and would only tell me how her bones hurt and how her stomach hurt and how hungry she was. Now, let me tell you Blondy about my oldest brother who passed away this past summer. He had liver problems and struggled to eat, struggled to drink. We were told he needed only comfort care and we said no. His last day or weeks or months on the earth would be good ones. He attempted to eat and drink but it hurt. We let him have anything he wanted. Did he eat much ? No. His body was shutting down and he hurt. He was always hungry--that is he was starving! He told me on his last day, Jeanne rub my legs my body is burning on the inside. I feel as if my body is on fire. Anyone who says starving to death is not painful is living under rose colored glasses. Three weeks we watched him barely eat anything. A few bites at each meal or a bite here and there between meals. Starving hurts Blondy and is very painful. Very. I know I rambled I am sorry and now I will leave.

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I am unsure why everyone is upset with me? The fact of the matter is, this DOES happen. I am not a patient NOR a family member who makes those decisions, all I can do is stand by and watch it happen. The decision lies with those who feel that is the best way they want to succumb.

And apparentely, people still aren't getting it. This is not about limiting food to bare minimal- this is about completing taking away liquids/food. Your body acts differently and adjusts when it is receiving no fuel AT ALL.

I am not saying people need to agree with me that it is or is not painful. Based on my experiences with patients (or their family members) who elected to have this done, it is not as horrific as it seems. But it doesn't mean it is for everyone.

MY thing is, it amazes me the amount of people that do not know that this goes on- therefore, they should stipulate, in writing, what their wishes are.

That's it. End of story.

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I think talking about this anymore is shredding a perfectly good thread to pieces...

I also think it gives the one you guys are focusing all this animosity on the very thing craved ... YOUR FOCUS. :duh:

The only way to really get out of the playpen...is not to climb in it.

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2 things:

First, this thread is about pregnancy/labor/delivery.

Second, I should think death would be a VERY DIFFICULT thing to be an "expert" on, doctor, researcher, number one hospital in the universe, or not; unless you have personally died yourself.

That is all.

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again, it is your wording that make all the difference... you keep saying "withheld" and "withdrawing" when what you are talking about is, in fact, a suicide or legal, assisted suicide. you are talking about patients who are either in so much pain that you could cut their leg of and they wouldnt know, or patients who are in a vegetative state...

they REFUSE food. noone would deny them any food or drink if they asked for it.

if a doctor decided to "withhold" food from a patient and let that patient starve to death, that would be murder... torture and murder. if he complies to the patients wish to not be force fed he is standing at a moral dilemma where he is assisting someone with suicide. the doctor is not activly taking part in the patients death, so there is no law against it. they can not force feed someone against their wish (like with DNR)

my great grandmother did this. her mind was gone and her body was shutting down so she refused to eat. she did drink a little, but did indeed starve to death. how long a patient can last without food depends entirely on their general health... her heart gave in rather quickly... i am just shocked that you are not aware of this...

Once again, you better educate yourself especially if you do not have a will in place, as well as expressing your wishes.

I do not work in a nursing facility. Some of the patients I see are on their way out because of an illness in which they will never recover from. These patients are in a nursing home. I am the place the nursing home sends them to when they have MEDICAL ISSUES. Typically, these types of patients leave where I work and go to Hospice, if they do not pass away at the hospital.

There is nothing illegal about withholding water/food if the patient requests OR if the family of the patient requests (if the patient is not able to tell them what they want.)

Some of the patients I see ARE conscious and awake and able to communicate. Now, once food/water is withheld, they do eventually slip into a coma and pass away, but as the article suggests, many times the patient is very aware of what's going on. Sometimes they do not...in the case of alzheimer patients.

Did some of you not read the SECOND article I posted? The PDF file which is a medical journal for yet, another well known hospital?

I cannot speak for other countries, but here in the U.S., it is practiced throughout all states and it is LEGAL.

If you want to remain uneducated about what COULD happen to you as you get older, be my guest, but it is a very real occurance and happens everyday.

I use to think it was horrible too. Back when the Terri Schivao (SP) case happened. I said, how HORRIBLE of a thing to do to somebody...even if it in vegatative state. But then I researched and while I came to an understanding that it wasn't as bad as it sounds, I thoroughly did not understand it until I started working in the field.

I encourage you people to, instead of sitting here arguing with me, to research it for yourselves if you do not believe me.

now i am utterly confused and left with a few alternatives as to what is going on...

either: A you are so stuck on being a victim that you completely refuse to see that we are saying the same thing.

B, you didnt read my post, just assumed something, quoted my post and ranted on about how we do not get you and need to educate ourselves.

C, youre either drunk or on something and completely unable to see or read what has been written.

D, you are too dumb to be able to comprehend what i wrote.

i am guessing that A is correct, but my mind is open to other explanations....

i AM educated about this. you just insist on using the wrong words. you still say "Withheld" but how can food and water be "Withheld" when the patient already has stated that they do not wish to eat or drink anything? if i strap you to a bed and say "no food and water for you!" i am WITHOLDING it. if you lay on the bed and say "I do not wish to eat or drink anything" i am respecting your wishes.... see the difference?

i never said it was illegal to respect a patients wishes. i think my exact words were "LEGAL, assisted suicide"

it is almost as if you are trying to make this more contraverisal than it really is.....

and i thought you left this thread already?

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pssst skjotta! don't use the quote function for her posts. otherwise people who have blocked her but want to read your posts get stuck reading her despite having blocked her original posts since it's quoted in yours.

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they can read her name in the top of the quote box and skip it.... seriously. some of us think this is rather entertaining....

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where i worekd they wern't denied food or water,fact is they were stickened withdiseases, even some of the patients, i worked with were in their middle thirties, in their fifties, due to diseases, strokes, where they couldn't take care of themselves, toohard for family members totake care of them. Problem was they couldn't eat,or hardlyswallow,many tiem theyhad to be fed, many refused t o eat ,toomuch for them to eat.. the disease that invaded their body, terminal cancer for instance, it destroys the body, iremember the doctor tellign us, that the body isns't getitng the food,neutrients, for the cnacer is getting it...

thes peopele were dieing slowly, form teh disease,at the same time were starving... they were in pain..... Ir emember a yong owma inher late thirties, struck down with rhumotoid arthrists, she couldn't lifet her ahnds, her fingers were twireled intoher palms, noway coudl she feed herself, She refuse food the food we fed her.... She wanted to die, Believe she willed her herself to die.... Still she suffered from not getitng food/water...

Edited by Ann Wheeler

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So...if any hospital provider - nurse, physician, whatever, witheld appropriate nutrition from ANY patient, the Deaprtment of Health and Joint Commission would come down so hard and so fast, heasd would roll. I'm not saying that bad things don't happen on occasions, but they can't happen very often in first world, accredited healthcare institutions. I've heard WAY more about family members AT HOME denying chronic patients nutrition or medication, either because it's abuse, or because they ration due to lack of finances, or whatever. But in the last 10 years, I can't remember a case where nutrition was intentionally withheld in the large, metropolitan area where I live and work. That's what TPN is for. That's why NG and J tubes are available.

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you are just a special kind of slow arent you? the patient (in this case the patient was unable to so his wife did it for him) requested that he not be force fed through a tube... so... suicide.

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That person had life support taken away, he was unable to speak for himself so his wife did so for him, assisted suicide, or just letting nature take its intended course, whatever. Your other example Stanley on the other hand was BEGGING the nurses for food and water, whether he was competent enough to make medical decisions for himself or not, those basic life sustaining instincts of hunger and thirst don't go away. His daughter acting as POA ordered his murder, IMO, and when the doctors in the hospital refused to follow HER wishes, she had him moved. Sick? YES. Murder? YES. Stanley sounds like he could've lived longer had he been given the chance, without further life prolonging interventions. Sounds like he just gave up on life, and that is incredibly sickening and sad that was allowed to happen in this country. Just because it happens "all the time" doesn't mean it is right, ESPECIALLY since Stanley was conscious and able to request (or beg in this case, how pitiful) food and water.

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you are just a special kind of slow arent you? the patient (in this case the patient was unable to so his wife did it for him) requested that he not be force fed through a tube... so... suicide.

Apparently you did not read the whole article. That is just one particular case they are talking about. Point is, if someone has power of attorney over you, they can do what they like.

Can you leave personal attacks out of it? I mean, really? Maybe one would actually read all that you type if you didn't call people names or suggest that they are slow?

You are one miserable person. I feel sorry that you have to come on an internet bulletin board and call others names, simply because I supposedly "do not get" what you are saying.

I get what you are saying. You are not getting what I AM saying.

All I said was that pulling of food/water from a patient is a thing that happens all over the country as a means to end a life that is ending anyway and based on studies and reports, once the patient has gone without, it is a fairly comfortable way to die because the body knows what to do. I also said that if people do not have their affairs in order and it is not written in a legal way, that anyone with power of attorney over said person gets to dictate what is done to the patient....even if the patient cries for food/water, if a family member has power of attorney, it doesn't matter.

That's it. End of story. Enjoy once again arguing about it amongst yourselves.

:duh:

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let's ALL do a rollback to the OP and canter off!

which is a very worthy topic. even though i've never brought a child into this world, it has taught me a lot! thank you ladies!

(not you blondy--once again, i find you are mentally and emotionally NOT FIT for the health care industry.)

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let's ALL do a rollback to the OP and canter off!

which is a very worthy topic. even though i've never brought a child into this world, it has taught me a lot! thank you ladies!

(not you blondy--once again, i find you are mentally and emotionally NOT FIT for the health care industry.)

And you are a qualified, licensed psychologist/psychiatrist who can diagnose me as such? Even the most well respected ones cannot proclaim they can diagnose someone based on internet postings.

Well, you are a well-off millionaire in your own head, might as well add licensed mental health physician who can defy all odds to that delusion as well.

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no--not in my own head. in the IRS's head. UNFORTUNATELY:

AH MA GAD, i forgot to ignore her again. skojjta is right. some of us find you really amusing. (but not suitable for the health care industry)

subdue your rage. this thread is NOT aboujt you or hospice. OR your misinterpretation of it. i KNOW, i was there with my mother and father.

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