MiSSxZURi

Pregnancy/labor/delivery!

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People don't really "starve" to death...their bodies start shutting down from lack of fluids. They dehydrate and die from lack of fluids...not really starve to death.

:shocked::duh::thud: :thud: :thud: :thud: :thud: :thud:

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Skjotta...no...I quoted you because at the beginning of my post, I was referring to what you had said. But no, you have not called me any names or belittled me in anyway- so the rest of the post was not in regards to you

But i am not psychic, and neither are anyone else here so when you say (I am on my phone. . Cant go back and re read... taking artistisc freedoms...) "why don't you cows have your slippery spawn...." you generalise. You direct it at all participants of the discussion, and then you act all hurt and victimized when people get pissed at you...

As for the rest... it is the debate board. If you dont want your underdog, extreme opinions and beliefs debated, keep them to yourself. ..

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But i am not psychic, and neither are anyone else here so when you say (I am on my phone. . Cant go back and re read... taking artistisc freedoms...) "why don't you cows have your slippery spawn...." you generalise. You direct it at all participants of the discussion, and then you act all hurt and victimized when people get pissed at you...

As for the rest... it is the debate board. If you dont want your underdog, extreme opinions and beliefs debated, keep them to yourself. ..

There is quite a bit of difference between debating- and then there are personal attacks- which, if you read the rules before you click on the forum, it specifically states, no personal attacks.

Saying... "I think going this way is pain free because so and so respected individual IN THE FIELD said so" and then having people call you duragatory names, or accuse you of having a mental illness...IS a personal attack. It does not debate the subject at hand. In fact, no one has bothered to even provide a link, SUPPORTING their theory that it IS painful...all they have done is called names.

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:shocked::duh::thud: :thud: :thud: :thud: :thud: :thud:

The body dehydrates from lack of water before it will food. People can go weeks, sometimes months without food. It is the lack of water that can kill someone within 72 hours, depending on circumstances.

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There is quite a bit of difference between debating- and then there are personal attacks- which, if you read the rules before you click on the forum, it specifically states, no personal attacks.

Saying... "I think going this way is pain free because so and so respected individual IN THE FIELD said so" and then having people call you duragatory names, or accuse you of having a mental illness...IS a personal attack. It does not debate the subject at hand. In fact, no one has bothered to even provide a link, SUPPORTING their theory that it IS painful...all they have done is called names.

Look lady.... you already called them cows at that point. You also refuse to answer posts saying that other experts say otherwise AND you sweep first hand experience under the rug.

Wake up and take some responsibility for your own behavior.

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I pity you.

I am out on this thread. You guys can knicker and laugh all you want amongest yourselves. I get the last laugh. Knowledge is power. ;)

*knickers* is british for underwear.

and i think you are mentally and emotionally unfit for the health care industry. this is not a perjorative statement (name calling)--simply my take on your personality.

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I used to work in anursing home,I haves seen people die, soem did not go peacefully they were racked with pain,begged the lord totake them. I have seen people hungry,couldn't feeed themselves, had to tobe fed by feeding tube ,It wasn['t pleasant, for they suffered. I have seen people in chronic pain up until their death. Death isn't easy....

What happens to some they go into coma.. which is a belssing, which is thier peaceful sleep. Some passed away in thier sleep, due to a heart attack.which is painful.

Starving is painful known as hunger pains.... A person can only live on water so long,for it does not contain the nutrients food does to maintain the body...yes they do starve to death.I've witnessed it .

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New Years resolution: Don't argue with a box of rocks.

Seriously.

You know guys, I finally figured out how to work the ignore feature with the new software. It's pretty awesome. Now if only other people would stop quoting it, life would be grand :)

And back to the initial subject:

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/138/9/1796S.full

or, for the layperson:

http://www.scienceandsensibility.org/?p=4995

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I used to work in anursing home,I haves seen people die, soem did not go peacefully they were racked with pain,begged the lord totake them. I have seen people hungry,couldn't feeed themselves, had to tobe fed by feeding tube ,It wasn['t pleasant, for they suffered. I have seen people in chronic pain up until their death. Death isn't easy....

What happens to some they go into coma.. which is a belssing, which is thier peaceful sleep. Some passed away in thier sleep, due to a heart attack.which is painful.

Starving is painful known as hunger pains.... A person can only live on water so long,for it does not contain the nutrients food does to maintain the body...yes they do starve to death.I've witnessed it .

Exactly, Ann...you do live longer without food, than without water, but water has NO nutrients, therefore, you DO starve to death........not a hard concept to grasp, really.

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Look lady.... you already called them cows at that point. You also refuse to answer posts saying that other experts say otherwise AND you sweep first hand experience under the rug.

Wake up and take some responsibility for your own behavior.

Too bad her employer can't see this BB...she'd be run out on a rail!

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Seriously.

You know guys, I finally figured out how to work the ignore feature with the new software. It's pretty awesome. Now if only other people would stop quoting it, life would be grand :)

And back to the initial subject:

http://jn.nutrition....38/9/1796S.full

or, for the layperson:

http://www.sciencean...ity.org/?p=4995

thanks for the tip about quotes (don't do them) to spare others bleeding eyes and the links. very interesting information that makes a LOT of sense.

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That was an excellent read, goldentoes, for sure. I had to skip the first one and go straight to the second one. :unsure: I could have gotten through the first one, but my brain isn't ready to work that hard.

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Exactly, Ann...you do live longer without food, than without water, but water has NO nutrients, therefore, you DO starve to death........not a hard concept to grasp, really.

No, one would dehydrate from lack of water first before they would food. Once again, most people can only survive sometimes up to a week without water. A person can go without food a lot longer than they can water, so, when a patient passes away once food/water is withheld, it is either from the illness they had, OR from the water they are not receiving.

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I'm just wondering if you will share where you work/what your certification is. I'm genuinely curious at this point because you are blatantly ignoring answering.

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I'm just wondering if you will share where you work/what your certification is. I'm genuinely curious at this point because you are blatantly ignoring answering.

Sorry but I cannot. I am not going to have people, from an internet bulletin board, flooding my work with "fire her" requests because they disagree with my opinions, even though they are medically fact.

I am not saying you would at all- but there are those on here that live pitiful lives that would.

I will just say- I spend a lot of time with my patients and if they were in pain, they would certainly let me know.

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What person, doctor or otherwise, would withhold indefinitely food and water to a patient that wasn't clinically brain dead (ie on life support)?

There are obviously reasons elderly/sick people quit eating towards the end of their life, but that is something they do on their own, and can refuse feeding tubes and whatnot, but from the statements you make, doctors are withholding food and water to speed up the process?? Am I reading that correctly? If so, I would consider that extreme cruel and unusual punishment, abuse, and probably even murder. When my grandma had her stroke she was unable to eat or swallow, without knowing the extent of damage to her brain and whether or not she would make a reasonable recovery, a feeding tube was placed. Without it she would have withered away before our eyes as she slowly and painfully starved to death. She may not have been able to express her pain because of the stroke, but to claim it would not be there is ignorance. The doctors would NOT be able to withhold fluids however, for reasons stated above. Grandma was not able to make a full recovery, she cannot speak words or walk as her whole right side is paralyzed, but she has a decent quality of life, and is able to eat and drink fluids herself now. The point being, the doctors in the stroke ward would not even withhold fluids from her, even though she was unable to express thirst, it is still cruel to withhold that from someone. Anyone who has had heat stroke knows it is not painless to be extremely dehydrated.

GT, that is another great benefit to the baby birthed vaginally. On the same note, it is almost scary thinking of the flora and fauna that actually do inhabit a cesarean newborn, since it is not that of the mother.

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I do remember her saying, a while back, she was not even IN nursing school , yet, but was working towards it. My guess would be, nursing assistant.

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What person, doctor or otherwise, would withhold indefinitely food and water to a patient that wasn't clinically brain dead (ie on life support)?

There are obviously reasons elderly/sick people quit eating towards the end of their life, but that is something they do on their own, and can refuse feeding tubes and whatnot, but from the statements you make, doctors are withholding food and water to speed up the process?? Am I reading that correctly? If so, I would consider that extreme cruel and unusual punishment, abuse, and probably even murder. When my grandma had her stroke she was unable to eat or swallow, without knowing the extent of damage to her brain and whether or not she would make a reasonable recovery, a feeding tube was placed. Without it she would have withered away before our eyes as she slowly and painfully starved to death. She may not have been able to express her pain because of the stroke, but to claim it would not be there is ignorance. The doctors would NOT be able to withhold fluids however, for reasons stated above. Grandma was not able to make a full recovery, she cannot speak words or walk as her whole right side is paralyzed, but she has a decent quality of life, and is able to eat and drink fluids herself now. The point being, the doctors in the stroke ward would not even withhold fluids from her, even though she was unable to express thirst, it is still cruel to withhold that from someone. Anyone who has had heat stroke knows it is not painless to be extremely dehydrated.

GT, that is another great benefit to the baby birthed vaginally. On the same note, it is almost scary thinking of the flora and fauna that actually do inhabit a cesarean newborn, since it is not that of the mother.

A doctor cannot do anything medically without authorization...other than to resusitate a DNR patient in the O.R. A doctor has to have authorization for EVERYTHING- and believe me, in this sue happy world, they stick to that.

Sometimes it is the patient that requests it and sometimes it is the family. The doctors can make suggestions but no, they are not the ultimate decision makers.

And yes, patients do get water/food withheld actually quite frequently while they are still conscious. If you go to a Hospice house, you will see a lot of that. And sometimes, they do not have pain meds. When you have patients who have had food and water pulled, they do not express that they are in any pain.

Heat stroke is different from withdrawing food/water in a medical setting. Supportive care is given. The patient is calmly lying in a bed in a cool room whereas someone with heat stroke, their body is overheated and stressed. The patient who is being given supportive care, their body is preparing for death. The body/mind is very smart and as the article I linked to, knows what to do. Our bodies are prepared for us to die in this way.

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And yes, patients do get water/food withheld actually quite frequently while they are still conscious. If you go to a Hospice house, you will see a lot of that. And sometimes, they do not have pain meds. When you have patients who have had food and water pulled, they do not express that they are in any pain

That comment right there makes me sick to my stomach. I "HOPE" you get to go through that very thing that you just wrote.

How do you know they don't go through Pain..have you asked them? Have they responded to you? Why don't you put yourself in their spot on the bed.

To have someone withhold food/water from you, see them feed another patient..how helpless/alone you would feel. I can see why a person would

give up on life..In all the manors/hospitals that I have trained/worked in. I have never ever once seen food nor water withheld from anyone, wether they were dying or not.

If they were not able to eat physically then they had a feeding tube.

If food or water was withheld, it was ONLY for a blood test or a before a medical procedure that required fasting for it.

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How do you know they don't go through Pain..have you asked them? Have they responded to you?

Yep. And they said no.

You have to remember, the people who elect to pull food/water (either them or their family members) are dying of incurable illness. These people will NOT get better. It is much easier on the body to pull food/water than it is to place a feeding tube for a person who is dying given the complications that can happen witha feeding tube.

It really astounds me on the amount of people who know NOTHING about this. Some of you really better read up on what happens and get a will in place just in case anything were to happen. If you are rendered not sane enough (in the case of dementia) then it is your children making decisions for you... so, while you are well, you need to eduate yourselves and really understand what it is that you want to happen instead of leaving the burden to someone else who may or may not do what you would want.

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Nothing in my training taught me to treat my patients/clients like that.

People with Dementia do not deserve to die without food/water. Mentally ill, handicapped, terminally ill

or whatever the case may be.

Your what a Volunteer?

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No, one would dehydrate from lack of water first before they would food. Once again, most people can only survive sometimes up to a week without water. A person can go without food a lot longer than they can water, so, when a patient passes away once food/water is withheld, it is either from the illness they had, OR from the water they are not receiving.

A doctor cannot do anything medically without authorization...other than to resusitate a DNR patient in the O.R. A doctor has to have authorization for EVERYTHING- and believe me, in this sue happy world, they stick to that.

Sometimes it is the patient that requests it and sometimes it is the family. The doctors can make suggestions but no, they are not the ultimate decision makers.

And yes, patients do get water/food withheld actually quite frequently while they are still conscious. If you go to a Hospice house, you will see a lot of that. And sometimes, they do not have pain meds. When you have patients who have had food and water pulled, they do not express that they are in any pain.

Heat stroke is different from withdrawing food/water in a medical setting. Supportive care is given. The patient is calmly lying in a bed in a cool room whereas someone with heat stroke, their body is overheated and stressed. The patient who is being given supportive care, their body is preparing for death. The body/mind is very smart and as the article I linked to, knows what to do. Our bodies are prepared for us to die in this way.

again, it is your wording that make all the difference... you keep saying "withheld" and "withdrawing" when what you are talking about is, in fact, a suicide or legal, assisted suicide. you are talking about patients who are either in so much pain that you could cut their leg of and they wouldnt know, or patients who are in a vegetative state...

they REFUSE food. noone would deny them any food or drink if they asked for it.

if a doctor decided to "withhold" food from a patient and let that patient starve to death, that would be murder... torture and murder. if he complies to the patients wish to not be force fed he is standing at a moral dilemma where he is assisting someone with suicide. the doctor is not activly taking part in the patients death, so there is no law against it. they can not force feed someone against their wish (like with DNR)

my great grandmother did this. her mind was gone and her body was shutting down so she refused to eat. she did drink a little, but did indeed starve to death. how long a patient can last without food depends entirely on their general health... her heart gave in rather quickly... i am just shocked that you are not aware of this...

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why argue with a box of rocks??

ozzie quote, and a good one at that. gt's tip, don't quote somebody that gives people who have blocked people who give you an eye bleed.

i

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End of life care is called "comfort care" food and water is never withheld....I've worked as an stna in several nursing homes and never ever have I seen a resident not be allowed food and water, in fact that's the one thing most patients appreciate that all restrictions are removed from food where they may have been on a special modified diet such as ground food and thickened fluids, many older people on their death bed love finally being allowed a cold drink of thin water where for years they were given thickened fluids for fear of aspiration and risk of pneumonia

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