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trottingalong

Crank Nosebands?

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hello, I was hopeing that some one with more experience than me, could help me out.

I have a 3 yo tb x paint that is just starting to do some work. He and I are both new to dressage, and im trying to slowly start giving him the foundation he needs to suceed. I am doing all the training myself with advice and occasional help from a trainer. So far I think we are doing alright. However I am in need of a nice bridle and a good friend has a brand new m. toulouse bridle that I really like that she will sell me for a very good price. Thing is it has a crank noseband w a flash. Can I use it if I do not tighten it to much and leave it a little more loose? Or mabey I should just try to find a nice replacement, a regular nose band w a flash?(i dont really think he even needs the flash yet but trying to find one I like w/o one had been tough so i just leave it a little more loose than usual) The last thing I want to do is hurt him, he is the sweetest little baby and he tries so hard for me.

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it's called a hannoverian noseband, and if you use it chances are your young horse will start to *resent* work. it's a dumb idea that some eejit came up with to force a horse to keep his mouth shut under pressure. some countries have half-arsed competition rules that require that your horse has one--guess those are countries where manufacturers are big FEI sponsors. it's an artificial aid plain and simple, and won't do a bloody thing for your horse's performance and might achieve the contrary.

take it off and toss it or find something without it. i ride classical dressage and chase cows (practice the theory) with no cheek keepers or nose band and in a double broken snaffle. but then i don't practice hyper-flexion--otherwise known as rollkur. check out stateline tack's website for an affordable and chic alternative.

since you're doing the foundation training yourself, i HIGHLY recommend any of gerd heuschmann's books, available on amazon in english. good luck, be fair to your horse and have fun.

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All of our bridles have had crank nosebands, padded, and flashes. Each of the young horses my trainers and I have brought along have been brought along in this type tack; however, just because you have the ability to "crank" them up tight doesn't mean that you have to do so. I personally like the padding (versus a regular unpadded flash) and can slide my entire hand through each of the nosebands--even with the horse going at higher levels. It doesn't get tighter merely because the training goes up. And, the crank is a perfectly acceptable noseband when the rider/trainer uses it correctly. Certainly, if you pull it in as tightly as possible, you will do harm in your training, but the fact is, this is not how this tool has to be used, and when it is used properly, it does not cause resentment, nor does it cause issues with horses going on the bit correctly in a perfectly fair manner.

As to a regular flash, I've volunteered at dressage shows in bit check and seen those just as tight, and sometimes even tighter than cranks at shows. It all depends on who is doing the tightening. So it really doesn't comment on your type of dressage riding as to what type you choose, but the type of rider you choose to be when you adjust your tack.

If you don't have cows to chase, do get your young horse out of the ring several times a week. It is fantastic for their minds and one of the best things you can do for both the mind and the body. It helps keep the young horse fresh, forward, and introduces new things. My horses will trot hills, do poles (even jump a bit), and go out even when they go down to Florida. By keeping their interest, you keep them fresh. We'll always start them with a 15-20 min. walk outside before going into the ring. Fabulous book nick recommended. Read all you can. USDF's L program list is also a great place to get a good grounding--fabulous book list.

Just from a personal perspective, I did not like the quality of State Line's products the last time I ordered. Years ago when I evented they were great (before hooking up with PetSmart), but it is not the same now. Not a huge fan of the huge shipping cost at Dover, but do like their quality better. I tend to go with some of the smaller dealers like Horse of Course, M & M tack, The Farm House, and The Tack Room. I had to order some GumBits and The Tack Room had them at a very reasonable price w/shipping and I got them the next day.

Good wishes on your young horse!

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how do flashes keep a horse's mind fresh? really, i'm interested. i DO agree that cross-training keeps a horse's (or anybody's) mind fresh, but something strapping the horse's mouth shut? the MOST sensitive part of his anatomy,a place where he often expresses pleasure, meditation or frustration, or *I GET IT!* ?

have you ever observed a horse chew after understanding a new challenge? is that even really mentally possible for a horse in a flash? think YOU could do it?

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curious to what you are referring to as a "hanoverian noseband," Nick. Are you talking about the flash portion, or the crank noseband portion. Or is the combination of both that make it a "hanoverian noseband?"

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in germany that lower noseband is called a "hannoverian" and was designed by some eejit (irish for idiot) to prevent a horse from opening his mouth under pressure, for example, hyper-flexion.

i don't agree with it, but the FEI requires it in certain venues. that's why i don't compete--but then i'm lucky; i have a bunch of zebu cows who judge how my horse and i are doing on the dressage front :smilie: .

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I don't mind a flash (what I've always been taught to call what you call a Hanoverian noseband) but I never do mine up tight enough to force a mouth closed...I use it mostly when I jump.

I do dislike crank nosebands, though! If you think you need your noseband all that tight, and don't have the strength to get a normal noseband tight enough...then you need to rethink a whole lot of "whys"

Quick excerpt from Wiki...

Crank noseband or Swedish Cavesson: used most often on dressage horses at levels where a double bridle is worn, this noseband is similar to the plain cavesson except it is designed to be easy to get very tight, so as to keep the horse's mouth closed. Double bridles cannot use flash or drop cavessons, so the crank is seen on upper level dressage horses who will not keep the mouth shut. It is also used occasionally on show hunters and hunt seat equitation horses. The down side is the horse can't open his jaw at all when the crank is tight, so he cannot relax the jaw and properly move into the bit. Additionally, it can push the cheeks against the horse's teeth when over-tightened, which is painful.

Flash noseband or Aachen noseband: The flash was originally developed for show jumping riders, so they could close the mouth lower down in addition to having an appropriate noseband for a standing martingale. An additional feature of this noseband is that it holds the bit steady in the horse's mouth, which some horses prefer. The noseband is similar to the plain cavesson in that the top part encircles the nose 1-2 inches below the cheekbone, but it also includes a second strap that runs from the cavesson, around the nose in front of the bit and under the chin groove, then coming back around to the cavesson. This second piece is used to help keep the horse's mouth closed and to keep the horse from crossing his jaw. A flash noseband may be used with a standing martingale when the martingale is attached to the cavesson piece. This noseband is usually seen at the lower levels of dressage, or in the dressage phase of eventing.

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to quote someone i know (not personally) "i don't care" :smilie:

they're stupid IMO. and just IMO.

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Yes you, you even pointed out that mah mare's in one. lol. I will reiterate that she isn't cranked down AT ALL, and I actually like the large amount of cushion under her jaw. Not to mention the thick noseband to slim down her head; if I could find a thick black noseband, I wouldn't mind changing to it.

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how do flashes keep a horse's mind fresh? really, i'm interested. i DO agree that cross-training keeps a horse's (or anybody's) mind fresh, but something strapping the horse's mouth shut? the MOST sensitive part of his anatomy,a place where he often expresses pleasure, meditation or frustration, or *I GET IT!* ?

have you ever observed a horse chew after understanding a new challenge? is that even really mentally possible for a horse in a flash? think YOU could do it?

Sorry, I read her post twice and couldn't figure out where she said a flash kept the horse's mind fresh. I saw that she said getting the horse out of the ring kept them fresh...maybe I'm missing something.

I've used crank nosebands before. Because that was the bridle I was given to use, but I never once did it up tighter than I would any other noseband. :confused0024:

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Thank you Taglet.

Nick, I am not sure exactly what or why you seem to read my posts seemly adversely and so incorrectly; however, please do re-read my post. There was never any point where I stated that a flash or crank, kept a horse fresh, and I am pretty sure that the post is clear on this:

"do get your young horse out of the ring several times a week. It is fantastic for their minds and one of the best things you can do for both the mind and the body. It helps keep the young horse fresh, forward, and introduces new things. My horses will trot hills, do poles (even jump a bit), and go out even when they go down to Florida. By keeping their interest, you keep them fresh. We'll always start them with a 15-20 min. walk outside before going into the ring. Fabulous book nick recommended. Read all you can. USDF's L program list is also a great place to get a good grounding--fabulous book list."

There was never a point where I advocated use of any type of tightly fashioned crank, just as I said people need to be careful when tightening their flashes as they can get them too tight--how in the world would I be advocating THAT keeping a horse fresh?? Overtightening can also happen with a regular noseband, with the regular metal getting too tight it can cause a mark. Volunteering for bit check can show you a number of things. Some of them are from people who do not know better, and some are people who ought to know better and ride tight. Again, you choose the type of rider you want to be, and the type of rider you want to train with.

If someone does not want to use one, that is perfectly fine; however, if they use them correctly fitted--, then perhaps it is a difference in training preferences/philosophies. There is no right or wrong, but a matter of OPINION--Of which, different people have differing opinions. Again, each opinion is based and shaped by what each riders' program is/how they have been trained/their philosophy.

I have not needed or appreciate my comments being taken so completely out of context, and your resulting snide comments. I have no idea why you seem so defensive. I very much appreciate your point of view and think it is really amazing at the opportunities you share with everyone on this board. It is incredibly generous of you, and such a great learning opportunity. I think it is fantastic that you pursue dressage and find the total and complete joy in measuring yourself against what you do; however, there is absolutely nothing wrong with training with the best people available (also as you do), training correctly, enjoying the (local/regional/national) programs our dressage organizations offer and that includes enjoying showing, for me. For some reason, that seems to offend you. I am very sorry you cannot respect that; however, to lump show riders in one category "abusive" which you seem to do over and over, is quite unfair. At this point, however, you are now mis-quoting my posts and twisting the words around. I would like for this to please stop. I think this has now gone far enough. I quite plainly did not say what you intimated.

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Glad I ride in a discipline where nose bands are not legal. Horses that are relaxed, work with a quite and closed mouth, without needing any applience to help them do so

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Smilie, please don't make any sweeping negative summarizations about dressage as a whole :) Every discipline, including yours, has a set of people who do things in a manner that the rest of the discipline does not agree with.

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So strange looking to me! Are they being used in dressage yet, or just jumpers/XC/hunters? Never mind, just looked on smart pak and they do have dressage bridles. I know they're designed to minimize pressure points, but I still prefer the classic look wholeheartedly, and think a properly fitted bridle shouldn't bother the average horse.

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I asked because my old trainer used them on her warmbloods and thoroughbreds. When they were on the bit (they all went in smooth snaffles)...wow...they were in the bridle, practically pulling you out the saddle. Not stiff or yanky...just a really strong connection. The only exception was the schoolmaster pony, whom you had to drive into the bit and was always really light in the bridle.

So, I'm curious as to when one might use one and what people's thoughts were on them since it sort of seemed relevant to the topic at hand.

My background is predominatly hunter/jumper for pleasure rather than show, so the flash/drop nosebands/figure-8s/etc. have all been pretty much off my radar. Running into the Micklem bridle, whcih does buckle around the jaw, was a bit of a surprise.

Edited by bluemarigolds

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The discipline has nothing to do with it. I see western horses in western cavessons all the time. They are not breed show approved, but western riders do still use them. You may not use them, but there are western riders that do use them. They may not be in crank form, but it is still a nose band, and is used to keep the mouth shut.

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