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Hi everyone,

So, I have a very large, often strong 14 y/o, 17.3+ oldenburg. We are still in the training stages, but the eventual goal is to ride in the equitations, where I have competed for a while now and he has been entering into lately. Anyway, I have been looking for a bit for him, and wanted some other opinions. I was considering a broken D-ring Segunda, as I have used one before with him, to a lovely effect. He has been ridden in everything from a waterford to a rubber snaffle to double jointed bits, with no great change. I ride him in a standing martingale, and we jump on average about 3'-3'3", due to a knee injury that will prevent him from going much higher than 3'9". The segunda was by far my favorite. He is big and powerful, as I mentioned before, and most all of his previous riders have hung on his mouth like there is no tomorrow, so he has a pretty hard mouth. This would not be for helping him get into a frame or the like, as he is extremely supple and willing to move forward into the bit, he just gets too fast and due to his size, he ends up missing turns, having a very large step (its already 14 ft long, he gets up to 17-18 ft when he is fast, and consistently takes out one or two steps from lines...) Anyway, I am a very soft, light rider, as I have ridden smaller horses for a long time, so there is no concern with me being to hard on his mouth or hanging on him and having the bit be used too harshly. Also, I am only 5'3", on an obviously large horse, so I need some assistance form the bit controlling him to the correct degree and in the right methods.

What are your thoughts on this bit? Have you used it before? If so, did you find it to be too much, not enough, etc.? Is it good for large, strong horses?

Thanks! Please ask if you need any more information about him, me, our rides, etc in order to further understand the question and help me make a decision!

Edited by devinaskyestone

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Hi again! I just ordered the bit, I decided it wouldn't be a bad idea to have it anyway, just in case. Now, to alter my question, do you think this bit should be used full time ( I've seen a lot of people reference it as a good "refresher")? If not, what is your suggestion for a horse of his type for day-to-day riding?

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yes i have one thought; there is no bit in the world that can control a horse, only a bit of skill and strategy.

sounds to me like there are a couple of holes in his foundation. if i were you i'd start riding him around on a loose rein on the rail at the canter (guess that's where he starts to get strong) over little jumps--if need be for an hour--until he realizes there is nothing to lean on, and maybe it's a good idea to conserve energy (sits on his butt and collects), and DECIDES getting strong is dumb.

it has nothing to do with your size. our trainer rides big, powerful stallions chasing bulls in a snaffle. she's your size.

my advice is to forget a bit as your strategy to fix this. or a martingale. mechanical devices that just tick horses off. my bet is that it won't work--he's too strong so you have to out-psych him. think about what your butt, hands, and legs and ENERGY are doing to promote or perpetuate this kind of behavior. if he's missing his turns, maybe you're not asking soon enough?? there is NO quick fix.

btw, marcus ehning here in germany (top jumper) rides oldenburgs. you don't see much on their faces, nor do you see him doing much with his reins.

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When you flat him I would think about doing some more lateral work (leg yields, haunches/shoulders in) to get him thinking about using his rear end in the proper manner. Obviously if he's an older equitation horse he has to be fairly well schooled up and broke on the flat. Sounds like he has just fallen into some bad habits. Proper flat work will be the key to your success here. Once he is more ENGAGED through his hindquarters the turns will be easier.

And a segunda is one of my favorite bits, not that I can say I think it's necessarily the right bit for you in this situation. Do you have any video for us to watch of you guys going around?

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When you flat him I would think about doing some more lateral work (leg yields, haunches/shoulders in) to get him thinking about using his rear end in the proper manner. Obviously if he's an older equitation horse he has to be fairly well schooled up and broke on the flat. Sounds like he has just fallen into some bad habits. Proper flat work will be the key to your success here. Once he is more ENGAGED through his hindquarters the turns will be easier.

And a segunda is one of my favorite bits, not that I can say I think it's necessarily the right bit for you in this situation. Do you have any video for us to watch of you guys going around?

Hi again, he is an older eq horse, he is also very green, so even his foundation is a little shaky, and he has certainly never been very strong in the area of flat work... i have videos, but they are older and he is kind of a mess, so it isnt a very good representation of him.

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14 year old green eq horse?? i'm not even going to ask how this happened. you have to fix the holes in his foundation. picture a house with holes in its foundation. what happens to it? it falls apart. and a gimpy knee to boot? why are you even riding this horse? find someone safer!

you cannot fix this with mechanical devices. it will be like putting bandaids on a spurting artery. please stay safe.

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14 year old green eq horse?? i'm not even going to ask how this happened. you have to fix the holes in his foundation. picture a house with holes in its foundation. what happens to it? it falls apart. and a gimpy knee to boot? why are you even riding this horse? find someone safer!

you cannot fix this with mechanical devices. it will be like putting bandaids on a spurting artery. please stay safe.

He is still green because no one has ever put the time and energy in to train him into anything else. He is certainly not dangerous - I have been riding him for 2.5 years, and he has never once hurt me. You cannot think of him as a 14 year old, you have to think of him as a giant 6 year old with a remarkably hard mouth. He was trained before, into a pretty good 3'6" horse, but then sat for 4 or 5 years, lost all his muscle tone, forgot all his skills, and literally went back to square one. I am not attempting to fix it with a mechanical device, I am simply looking for advice as to what sort of bit other equestrians would suggest for such a horse. I went with the segunda so as to not have to pull on him to get an effect, because nothing else gets the message across except a three ring, and I am not a jumper rider. I ride two other horses consistently: one is in an eggbutt snaffle, and the other in a rubber covered d-ring snaffle. I am not the type to revert to harsh bits. Believe me, I know he needs a lot of work, and I am most certainly not that person that is going to bully their horse into behaving by using a bit. He is ridden in a martingale for safety reasons: many horses are. It is not an attempt to force his head down or anything of that sort. He does not have a gimpy knee. He was injured, and has made a full recovery. If you can name one horse that has led a full jumping career without getting lame or off at least once, please do. I bought him with the intent to train him myself, and the understanding that he would be a challenge, and need A LOT of work. I am not running into this blindly.

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Haven't ridden hunters in many moons, but still lurk.

It sounds like you've got a handle on things. Keep working on it at home and doing lateral work and reteaching him to be soft and carry himself.

I like to think every horse should be able to do everything in a snaffle. But I know that's not true. I have a 13 yr old that had no formal training before I had him 2 years ago. He was safe, knew go and knew whoa. Training him has been a different challenge than any of the younger truly green stock I've been on. We work most days at home in a snaffle. We run barrels in a lift bit. I would never in a million years have tried it on him if my trainer back home hadn't suggested it. It's worked very well for us, but I don't let just anyone ride him in it. Someday I'd like to get him into a hackamore to run in, but he's not there yet.

I would continue with what you've been doing if its working for you.

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If it works, cool.

That's not the type of bit I would ride ANY horse in all the time.

I had a gelding that went incredibly in a triangular snaffle or knife edge bit. I used it about 10 times a year. If I used it every day it would have stopped doing what I needed it to.

We worked many painstaking hours at home in a plain french link loose ring.

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If it works, cool.

That's not the type of bit I would ride ANY horse in all the time.

I had a gelding that went incredibly in a triangular snaffle or knife edge bit. I used it about 10 times a year. If I used it every day it would have stopped doing what I needed it to.

We worked many painstaking hours at home in a plain french link loose ring.

I was definitely a bit hesitant to keep him in the segunda all the time, seeing as its a bit harsh. Do you have any suggestions for a bit to use day-to-day? I would really love to find something to use that won't give him a harder mouth...

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Anyone ever used a twisted wire snaffle (double or single), french link snaffle, waterford, or a corkscrew snaffle? I was thinking they might be good options, but some may also be as harsh as the segunda, and some not so much? Any ideas?

Edited by devinaskyestone

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file:///Users/cstone/Desktop/Screen%20Shot%202013-07-12%20at%202.56.25%20AM.png

This picture was taken with my big boy in a segunda (not minding my eq, this was about a year ago). As you can tell, he is jumping well (if a little high), and in a nice frame, obviously got a good distance, from a good step, etc. If I remember correctly, this was probably our best round of the whole season. He was soft, smooth, and all around lovely.

file:///Users/cstone/Desktop/Screen%20Shot%202013-07-12%20at%202.56.11%20AM.png

This one was taken at a local show, where he wore a regular snaffle. (my eq here is an absolute disaster... I can't explain that, probably got messed up by his distance, in combination with an awful round, and my lack of ability to control it at this time). He was out of control this whole round, head up, pulling, taking out steps, running around the course, etc. We got into a horribly deep distance here because it was either that or a long distance, which would have been more of what he preferred, but what we try to train out. This was because I had no control over his step and pace in this bit. Obviously, there is a big difference...

Just some additional information for you! Anyway, both these were taken within a a month of each other, so he obviously did not undergo a huge amount of training in between shows...

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I have ridden a number of horses that others have fought to control using various harsh bits. I use a simple D-ring snaffle bit. You may be able to control a horse with a harsh bit. You may even be able to get a horse to take the form of a relaxed horse using such a bit. Ready obedience, however, does not necessarily equate to softness. To develop a soft horse you need to establish subtle two-way communication. This is best done with a bit where one ounce of pressure at the rider's hands equals one ounce of pressure at the horse's mouth.

Pulling can be addressed by a take and give of the reins. The take is a resistance of the reins in conjunction with the rider's legs and body -- a form of half-halt. Though small, you should be able to achieve this by locking your arms to your sides as you tuck your hips and close your thighs so you get tighter if the horse tries to pull you forward. The "give" means that the horse has nothing to pull against and tells him that he must carry himself -- you will not hold him up. If you loose control, you can always double him by turning him into the fence and releasing the pull as he faces the other direction; this can be repeated as necessary until the horse stops trying to run away. Then, without, further punishment, you go back to working quietly.

Work at learning to regulate your horse before attempting the jumps which evidently excite the horse. When jumping or doing similar activities, be sure you do not become excited which will cause the horse to become excited and harder to control. A tense, excited athlete does not have the flexibility and control of one who is relaxed.

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I school one of my eq horses in the Segunda, and don't use a martingale on flat days with that bit. When we jump, 5/6 days a week, we use a Pelham or a simple Dee with a running martingale. Depends on your ability, I'd use it every day to start off with then scale off as he gets stronger and better to a milder bit.

My question is how the **** did a 3'6 horse that did eq end up like this? Horses rarely forget, and if he was a 3'6 eq horse, then how did he get away with holes in his training??? All the eq horses I've ever ridden have trained to at least 3rd or 4th level dressage and have extensive h/j training and school at 3'9. That's mine right there- well behaved and beautifully trained, but still opinionated and strong. He just is enthusiastic.

The knee injury bothers me... Do you know what did it?

Long live the EqQueen.

Off with your heads!

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I school one of my eq horses in the Segunda, and don't use a martingale on flat days with that bit. When we jump, 5/6 days a week, we use a Pelham or a simple Dee with a running martingale. Depends on your ability, I'd use it every day to start off with then scale off as he gets stronger and better to a milder bit.

My question is how the **** did a 3'6 horse that did eq end up like this? Horses rarely forget, and if he was a 3'6 eq horse, then how did he get away with holes in his training??? All the eq horses I've ever ridden have trained to at least 3rd or 4th level dressage and have extensive h/j training and school at 3'9. That's mine right there- well behaved and beautifully trained, but still opinionated and strong. He just is enthusiastic.

The knee injury bothers me... Do you know what did it?

Long live the EqQueen.

Off with your heads!

Hi! to answer your question, I may have mislead you. He was never a competing eq horse at 3'6". He was rather a 3'6" jumper who was schooled as and being trained for the eq ring. With me, he has gonw up into the 3' eqs, and 3'6" jumpers. i started him today, on his first day back, in the segunda. He was lovely! Absolutely calm, very soft and pliable, had good forward movement, and reaponded very well to the segunda- i didnt have to pull on him at all. Do you havw suggestions for a bit to move into? My friend fhat is rehabbing him had to use a straight bar rubber pelham because she didnt have another bit that fit him, and said he went well, but it was a little too much. I was considering a twisted (slow twist or not) snaffle... opinion? Thanks!

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As for the knee, he ran through a few fences, it was a bit of a disaster. He is making a full recovery and so far he has been doing wonderfully and seems to be making a full recovery. Due to his size, the injury probably will not hinder his jumping (up to 3'6", which is all i need for the eq...)

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Hi! to answer your question, I may have mislead you. He was never a competing eq horse at 3'6". He was rather a 3'6" jumper who was schooled as and being trained for the eq ring. With me, he has gonw up into the 3' eqs, and 3'6" jumpers. i started him today, on his first day back, in the segunda. He was lovely! Absolutely calm, very soft and pliable, had good forward movement, and reaponded very well to the segunda- i didnt have to pull on him at all. Do you havw suggestions for a bit to move into? My friend fhat is rehabbing him had to use a straight bar rubber pelham because she didnt have another bit that fit him, and said he went well, but it was a little too much. I was considering a twisted (slow twist or not) snaffle... opinion? Thanks!

Oh, ok, that makes sense now. What is the point of a fully trained 3'6 eq horse that isn't being shown? Lol, I will never understand some people. Wasted talent!! Glad to hear he went well in the Segunda. The Pelham might be too much but the rubber makes it more doable. You could try a Kimberwicke but they are tabooed, and you can't use them in eq, but it might be a good experience. It has a little curb action that you can adjust, and mostly has a low port solid mouthpiece. It's an idea but not a great one. You could try the twisted mouth. I don't really like them because I think they have a little too much bite, but a slow twist could be fine, and so could the other twisted one if it has a copper mouth. You could try a really short shanked Pelham, or maybe some double twisted Dee rings with copper. Just ideas because I only use the Segunda, Pelham and single break Dee ring on my hunters, eq horses and jumpers.

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Oh, ok, that makes sense now. What is the point of a fully trained 3'6 eq horse that isn't being shown? Lol, I will never understand some people. Wasted talent!! Glad to hear he went well in the Segunda. The Pelham might be too much but the rubber makes it more doable. You could try a Kimberwicke but they are tabooed, and you can't use them in eq, but it might be a good experience. It has a little curb action that you can adjust, and mostly has a low port solid mouthpiece. It's an idea but not a great one. You could try the twisted mouth. I don't really like them because I think they have a little too much bite, but a slow twist could be fine, and so could the other twisted one if it has a copper mouth. You could try a really short shanked Pelham, or maybe some double twisted Dee rings with copper. Just ideas because I only use the Segunda, Pelham and single break Dee ring on my hunters, eq horses and jumpers.

Glad to clear it up! I know, he has such potential and hasnt done anything! I hate it. I used a kimberwicke on my previous horse a little, and didn't like it too much. Thanks! I hadnt yet considered the copper/double twist idea.

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No problem. I'm not bad at this stuff, mostly I use the same bits on my horses. Let me know what you decide on. One of my barn friends had her groom put the double twisted wire copper snaffle on her horse. He went so well in it, but I don't think you can show in it. I'll check up on it with my trainer and BO but I'm fairly certain it's a no go. Pelham is legal, maybe you could work on it with him! I think a single twist dee ring is okay though, as is the slow twist. Not sure, but it depends on the show anyway. I think her groom actually put it on for Manchester but someone caught it before anything happened. His fault, he doesn't get English too well. That's why mine do, lol!

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No problem. I'm not bad at this stuff, mostly I use the same bits on my horses. Let me know what you decide on. One of my barn friends had her groom put the double twisted wire copper snaffle on her horse. He went so well in it, but I don't think you can show in it. I'll check up on it with my trainer and BO but I'm fairly certain it's a no go. Pelham is legal, maybe you could work on it with him! I think a single twist dee ring is okay though, as is the slow twist. Not sure, but it depends on the show anyway. I think her groom actually put it on for Manchester but someone caught it before anything happened. His fault, he doesn't get English too well. That's why mine do, lol!

All those seem like good options, i will have to ask my coach qhen he gets back from Bend, Oregon for the High Desert Classic. Quickly about the pelham, it has two sets pf reins if I am not mistaken, does it require any difficult handwork? I have never used one before. I definitely will, thanks so much for the advice!

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All those seem like good options, i will have to ask my coach qhen he gets back from Bend, Oregon for the High Desert Classic. Quickly about the pelham, it has two sets pf reins if I am not mistaken, does it require any difficult handwork? I have never used one before. I definitely will, thanks so much for the advice!

Yeah, the Pelham does have double reins. You can get a connector though, it's kinda shaped like a y and let's you use both reins at the same time like one rein. The double reins work really well but are a little hard to get used to. Def better for eq. I have a show tomorrow, 2 day, so I'm of to bed but will check tomorrow if you needed anything else. You can get really short shanks or long ones, whatever works best for the level of curb action that your horse needs. I like the short ones much better. I'd work with a trainer in the Pelham before jumping into it on your own.

Scarlett

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14 year old green eq horse?? i'm not even going to ask how this happened. you have to fix the holes in his foundation. picture a house with holes in its foundation. what happens to it? it falls apart. and a gimpy knee to boot? why are you even riding this horse? find someone safer!

you cannot fix this with mechanical devices. it will be like putting bandaids on a spurting artery. please stay safe.

14 year old green EQ horse...?

Sorry, no such thing.

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