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eventer170

Why Sidepaaing Instead Of Cantering?

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Hi, so we got our new little mare (16.2 Hands) Her name is Ginger and she is a Registerd Palomino Quarter Horse. She is the most wonderful Mare ever!! When we ride I can get the canter in one Direction then in the other direction she sidepasses? her canter que is weird, you have to use your outside leg and kiss, unlike the normal inside leg and it's just weird to me, but shes done wonderful most of the time. But when I get her to finally canter that then once she gets into it she is bumpy then once we get a rhythem its fine. she is out of shape, I just need some good excercises to do with her for bending and to figure out her canter! Please!!

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Make sure she doesn't need to been seen by a chiropractor because she may be out in the hips and unable to pick up the other lead?

Also, I've always had the outside leg as the normal canter cue? Inside seems weird to me! My horse would counter canter...

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My last show QH would canter inward if I didn't keep pressure on him to the rail. It was his weak side (left). Hed throw his hip to the side to adjust.

I'd get her checked by a chiro like Mars suggested just to make sure she is in line.

To get my old horse in shape I long trotted on the lounge line. Build up the muscles. They say hills work good, too.

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A side-pass (or full-pass) has no forward movement unless you consider the angle the horse must be on in order for the outside leg to cross the inside leg; this is done only at a walk. In a canter, what you are experiencing is probably more like a leg-yield or half-pass but not actually either of these. In a leg-yield the horse's head is bent just slightly one way while it moves diagonally the other direction. When cantering, the head is generally bent slightly to the inside if bent at all. In the half-pass, the shoulders should slightly lead the haunches while the horse is bent inward toward the diagonal direction it is moving. My guess is that your horse is cantering on a diagonal with its haunches proceeding its shoulders. Please, let me know if my supposition is wrong.

While a chiropractic adjustment may help, there are other natural characteristics to consider.

As far as cues for cantering are concerned, many methods have been and are used. Some riders use pressure from the outside leg slightly back. The problem with this method is that we use a similar cue to ask the horse to move its haunches over.

A horse that has not been conditioned properly and taught to move straight tends to move its haunches to the inside (i.e. left when cantering on the left lead) to relieve some of the stress encountered when cantering. This is seen in many animals -- very commonly in dogs. Because a horse generally has a stiff side, the horse tends to bring the haunches in more when on one lead than on the other. This is also why many horses prefer one lead over the other, and we must condition them and train them to take both leads.

In classical riding, where the horse may be ask to change leads every few strides -- possibly every stride -- it is considered a fault if the horse swings its haunches from side to side. Therefore, the horse's back, haunches, stifles, hocks, etc. must be strengthened and suppled so the horse can canter with a relatively straight body. Some people are surprised to learn that lateral movements such as the shoulder-in, haunch-in (preferably the haunch-out when at the side of an arena), and half-pass were developed for this purpose.

The bumpiness you sometimes feel may be caused by the horse being in a disunited canter sometimes mistakenly referred to as crossfiring. Essentially, when a horse is in a disunited canter, its forelegs are in one lead while its hind legs are in another. Realize that the "lead" refers to one shoulder and one hip slightly leading the other; in a left lead, the horse's left shoulder and left hip are slightly in front of its right shoulder and right hip. This is why a rider's left hip is slightly forward when his horse is on the left lead. I have even gotten a horse to take a particular lead simply by moving my one hip forward.

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Using the outside leg to ask for a lead departure is common and standard , esp western. LeaDS START BEHIND NOT IN FRONT. When you put that hip slightly into the lead, the horse is set up to take the first beat of that three beat stride (outside hind, then inside hind and outside front at about the same time, then the last beat is the inside front .(lead leg )

You use the same cues to change leads (flying lead changes ) Flying lead changes are no more that opposite lead departures without breaking gait

If you remember that reins control the horse from the whithers foreward, legs the rest, there is no confusion between lead departures and turn on the forehand-western horses do both manovers all the time, with no confusion., as there are nuiences of difference that the horse understands

I would also have the horse checked for any pain issue, as to why the horse is evading picking up that lead, and also have someone watch as to how you are both asking and setting that horse up for a lead departure

Cueing for a lead, concentrating on the front, thus using inside leg, will have the horse pick up that front lead, but mis the lead behind, thus have the horse cross firing. Conversely, when a horse is correct behind, he will be correct in front, as that lead is driven up from behind, and also starts there

A horse does not canter cooked, using outside leg to cue for that lead departure. Reiners would not be able to stop and slide, if they were going into that run down crooked.

Some western pleasure hor5ses are purposely canted to the inside, as that makes them drive deeper , thus lope slower-it is controversal at the over done degree, but that is neither here nor there , for this post!

While you are teaching a western horse lead departures, you use two hands, thus can also use inside rein slightly up and against the shoulder, keeping shoulder up, while asking for lead with outside leg slightly behind the cinch, thus driving the horse up correctly from behind into that lead.

Classical riding aside, a western horse has to learn to eventually pick up leads, execute flying changes, all ridden one handed and on a loose rein, ridden off of seat and legs, thus you need that hip control

Watch this western riding [pattern and the le4ad changes on aloose rein, to get an idea of that body control and how those leads start in the back

To me, this is just so more impressive than a horse changing leads , ridden two handed with strong rein contact.

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I have never heard of using an inside leg alone as a cue to canter; the outside leg is still drawn slightly back to indicate what lead the horse should take. Use of the inside leg at or slightly behind the girth to initiate a canter depart only asks for impulsion -- which comes from the rear.

When using the outside leg as a cue for the canter depart, I like Jane Savoie's suggestion of swinging the outside leg once behind the girth in a "windshield wiper" motion to activate the outside rear leg rather than using inward pressure, especially a poke of the spur. This is much less likely to cause a lateral swing of the horse's hips as seen at about 1:10 of the video above. Whether a swing of the hips is consider a fault or not, I believe in using the simplest and smoothest method possible to achieve a result.

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Thats so weird I have always used the inside leg, Today I rode her and got her body more connected with her brain and we were able to get a nice walk to canter transition easily after about a good 15 minutes of trying. But we got it! thanks!! I will also look into seeing if a chiro would help but, I dont think she will. She hasent been worked much this year.

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I have never heard of using an inside leg alone as a cue to canter; the outside leg is still drawn slightly back to indicate what lead the horse should take. Use of the inside leg at or slightly behind the girth to initiate a canter depart only asks for impulsion -- which comes from the rear.

When using the outside leg as a cue for the canter depart, I like Jane Savoie's suggestion of swinging the outside leg once behind the girth in a "windshield wiper" motion to activate the outside rear leg rather than using inward pressure, especially a poke of the spur. This is much less likely to cause a lateral swing of the horse's hips as seen at about 1:10 of the video above. Whether a swing of the hips is consider a fault or not, I believe in using the simplest and smoothest method possible to achieve a result.

Don't remember Jane Savoie winning any NRHA or World AQHA titles. Also, what you are seeing in the video above, is a horse doing slow cadenced lead changes on a completely loose rein-makes a difference.

It is also this hip control that allows Stacy Westfall to do a complete reining pattern without any tack

When I am riding with contact , I only need to take my leg off of the off side of old lead side, put lt on the outside of new lead, and the horse changes

As an example-a well known trainer I know was doing a demo in England, doing flying changes, along side a dressage horse. Both horses did greaT flying changes. Then the western trainer dropped the bridle on his horse and repeated a series of flying changes-the dressage horse could not, without that rein support-so maybe explains to you, old masters or not, the difference, as those old masters never did flying changes on a total draped rein

Again, no intent on this drifting towards what is better-English or western, just expLaining why there might be a slight varIATION IN TECHNIQUE- tHOSE OLD mASTERS RODE WITH CONSTANT CONTACT and quite a lot of it!,

This is a stock horse, so I presume he was trained according to standard stock horse methods, and the OP might benefit from understanding those cues, versus what some old Master riding dressage did, and connect with her horse in a language he understands!

There is micro management , riding English (open ) , where little bit of outside rein or leg supports this and a little bit of inside leg or rein supports something else, but a truly trained western horse is expected to move with total self carriage, ridden one handed and on a loose rein. Again, neither one better than the other-just different , for a desired end result

Drop the bridle on your horse and do some flying changes.

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Thats so weird I have always used the inside leg, Today I rode her and got her body more connected with her brain and we were able to get a nice walk to canter transition easily after about a good 15 minutes of trying. But we got it! thanks!! I will also look into seeing if a chiro would help but, I dont think she will. She hasent been worked much this year.

Even if she hasn't been worked, she may still be in need. One of my gelding's worst times being "out" was after he got a shoe hung up in a fence while rolling during a colic, nothing to do with work. She's still moving, bucking and kicking in the field, so she could still be out. I know that as soon as my gelding starts to be a putz about leads, I need to get the chiro on him.

You've gotten good advice, I personally prescribe more to Smilie's methodology myself.

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Smilie, I did not see this topic as referring either to "Western" or "English" riding. In fact, I have seen a great deal of variance in riding techniques that might fall vaguely into either of these categories if one wanted to label them such. My comment regarding the use of the outside leg cue was simply aimed at addressing one possible reason why the horse may be going diagonally, at least on the one lead.

While it is true that riding with two hands gives a rider much more variety in the cues which may be given, this need not -- I feel, should not -- be done with a lot of contact. I consider the bit as a means of communication, not control. A telegraph operator worked his key with a light, relaxed touch; a stiff, heavy hand would not work nearly as well. I feel the same is true when riding horses. A heavy hand leads to a stiff horse.

That said, a horse can be taught to respond to a variety of cues. In the following video -- at about the 3:00 point -- Clemence Fairvre is doing flying changes while riding without reins. If you look closely, it appears that she might be signaling this change with a tap of her whip on either side of the horse's rump. This is just another example of the variety of cues that might be used once a horse is trained.

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hmmm... are you sure it's not just crouper in? in which case you might be putting the cueing leg farther back on that side than on the side that she picks up the lead.

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So how exactly are you asking for that lead departure. Are you just using your inside leg. (sorry my question mark ion is not working, so juts assume! ) Is she thus side passing away from your leg, or side passing into it. Where do you have your leg positioned. On a western horse,outside leg at the girth is a cue to sidepass, along with outside rein against the neck. Lead departure, on the other hand, is the outside leg slightly behind the girth, so you could be accidently cueing for a side pass

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