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nick

Poland Wants To Outlaw *kosher* Slaughter

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here's a fun one, and along with any attempt to forbid circumcision according to chapter and verse where the jews and the islams unite!! shoulder to shoulder. why is that??

the EU requires that animals designated for slaughter are first stunned (rendered braindead) with a humane killer and then slaughtered. islam and the old testament decree that an animal is slaughtered live with *a very sharp knife* and then bled out. animal rights advocates have decided *enough is enough* --it is 2013 after all, and we're not living in the desert with no other means at our disposal, and have put the pressure on the polish government to stop the practice.

the orthodox jews and islamists are going berserk (just like they did last year on the topic of circumcision) saying it will *undermine our traditionalist beliefs!"

my view is tough. in the Old Testament it was considered just fine for a father to knock his daughter(s) up, or that the easiest way to get a woman to marry you was to rape her. enough already.

i've witnessed one of these unlovely ceremonies and eaten the finished product. tough, watery meat due to an animal who died in fear, full of adrenalin. ask any michelin star chef--not good for anybody.

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Hmm.

I don't normally post on here anymore but decided to since I have first hand experience of Shechitah slaughter (Kosher simply means that the animal is suitable for consumption under their laws, which includes Halal and the method of slaughter).

My employer is Jewish and performs Halal slaughter here on the farm. I have watched it several times and eaten the product.

All of the dispatches I watched were quick and humane. The animal did not struggle or appear overly distressed (other than dying I suppose) and was unconscious and dead quite quickly. In seconds. An animal injured during this is no longer considered Kosher and cannot be eaten, so it's important for the family I work for that their livestock are restrained properly and safely and dispatched properly.

Obviously not something I would try, as I am not trained to administer a clean cut properly, but when properly done, appears quite humane.

The meat was decadent. Part of that of course, is being raised the way they are, but the meat was in no way tainted by adrenaline or anything else, and I can be quite a snob about quality.

We will be processing a young steer soon.

I won't really touch on the whole political aspect of it, because that does not interest me in the least. I just wanted to note that when properly done, Halal slaughter has been, in my experience, very humane.

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Hmm.

I don't normally post on here anymore but decided to since I have first hand experience of Shechitah slaughter (Kosher simply means that the animal is suitable for consumption under their laws, which includes Halal and the method of slaughter).

My employer is Jewish and performs Halal slaughter here on the farm. I have watched it several times and eaten the product.

All of the dispatches I watched were quick and humane. The animal did not struggle or appear overly distressed (other than dying I suppose) and was unconscious and dead quite quickly. In seconds. An animal injured during this is no longer considered Kosher and cannot be eaten, so it's important for the family I work for that their livestock are restrained properly and safely and dispatched properly.

Obviously not something I would try, as I am not trained to administer a clean cut properly, but when properly done, appears quite humane.

The meat was decadent. Part of that of course, is being raised the way they are, but the meat was in no way tainted by adrenaline or anything else, and I can be quite a snob about quality.

We will be processing a young steer soon.

I won't really touch on the whole political aspect of it, because that does not interest me in the least. I just wanted to note that when properly done, Halal slaughter has been, in my experience, very humane.

point taken. in poland it is frequently NOT humane because there is a HUGE export market to the middle east. remember the horse meat scandal in canned goulash?

nice to see ya epona.

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There's always someone somewhere that will do things improperly, and probably more doing it wrong than right now days.

What can you do, I suppose.

:smileywavey:

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i titled this post all wrong. the greater debate point for me is that why is it that jews and muslims seem to disagree (and not peacefully) about everything but the religious traditions of circumcising young male babies and kosher slaughter. scripture that was written over 2000 years ago for completely different reasons, like hygiene (poor access to clean water) and no refridgerators??

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I don't think circumcision is wrong- and I think if what Epona states is true (it's over in mere seconds) that this method is no more severe than what the slaughter houses do.

I get how cutting a live animal and letting it bleed out can seem worse. The idea of blood usually frightens most. But even in slaughterhouses, they miss at times and can cause pain.

Bleeding out is suppose to be relatively painless...I think if people thought about things instead of jumping on the emotion bandwagon, they would get it.

We circumcise babies. We eat animals. Sometimes animals eat us. It's a part if life and unfortunately, pain can be a part of that.

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i titled this post all wrong. the greater debate point for me is that why is it that jews and muslims seem to disagree (and not peacefully) about everything but the religious traditions of circumcising young male babies and kosher slaughter. scripture that was written over 2000 years ago for completely different reasons, like hygiene (poor access to clean water) and no refridgerators??

Kosher slaughter and circumcision, for the Jews (and I assume Muslim because I don't really know,) is NOT just about hygiene and refridgeration. We have had this conversation before, I think regarding circumcision specifically. The slaughter and circumcision are deeply covenental aspects of their faith, highly symbolic and not simply about rules.

That doesn't mean I agree, just pointing out.

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my debate point IS; WHY CAN THE JEWS AND MUSLIMS NOT AGREE ON ANYTHING EXCEPT CIRCUMSION RIGHTS AND KOSHER SLAUGHTER??

according to scripture written over 2000 years ago?

i give up, never mind.

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my debate point IS; WHY CAN THE JEWS AND MUSLIMS NOT AGREE ON ANYTHING EXCEPT CIRCUMSION RIGHTS AND KOSHER SLAUGHTER??

according to scripture written over 2000 years ago?

i give up, never mind.

Because that is what they believe! They believe straying from those set of laws/beliefs is the devils work. Hence why they attempt not to stray.

It is what it is.

Who cares what others beliefs are anyways?

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there is no help for you somehow. the devil's work? educate yourself. how about that?

I'm simply stating that to veer from ones beliefs, sometimes they feel if they do, that it is the devils work and veering is not what they are suppose to be doing.

So hostile Nicky! *pinches Nickaroos cheeks*

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I'm simply stating that to veer from ones beliefs, sometimes they feel if they do, that it is the devils work and veering is not what they are suppose to be doing.

So hostile Nicky! *pinches Nickaroos cheeks*

there is no help for you. veer? really? how amusing. well just to remind you that i live in a different time zone and am going to bed, and you're WAY OT, but then so am i,

veer? :rotf:

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my debate point IS; WHY CAN THE JEWS AND MUSLIMS NOT AGREE ON ANYTHING EXCEPT CIRCUMSION RIGHTS AND KOSHER SLAUGHTER??

according to scripture written over 2000 years ago?

I thought it was a rhetorical question.

2000 yrs ago I believe the lack of clean water sources and food storage capabilities played a very large role in keeping both cultures viable and they became tradition. Tradition, especially tradition through religion, can be difficult to alter.

Gah! This site has a good explanation, first reminding us about stereotyping's pitfalls, but it also highlights how ridiculous (IMO) this animosity towards each other is: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-Arabs.html

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there is no help for you. veer? really? how amusing. well just to remind you that i live in a different time zone and am going to bed, and you're WAY OT, but then so am i,

veer? :rotf:

Yes.... veer. Should I use it in a sentence?

Nickaroo took a veer and headed for bed, to rest her pretty wittle head!

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my debate point IS; WHY CAN THE JEWS AND MUSLIMS NOT AGREE ON ANYTHING EXCEPT CIRCUMSION RIGHTS AND KOSHER SLAUGHTER??

Gues I totally didn't get, either, that that was your point. But if you trace Jewish and Muslim biblical history back to the sons of Abraham and the origin of the divergence it is pretty self-explanatory.

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my thoughts.

Religion and State need to be separated. We have slaughter laws in this country (I'm talking of Canada ) with facilities inspected by govenment agencies, so why should religious exceptions be given?

The animal is the looser, and I''m sure that animal is neither a Jew or a Muslim

We don't allow 'traditions' like female mutilation in tthis country, to satisfy some sect, so why should animals not also be protected under the laws of the country they live in?

Many here are opposed to horse slaughter-period-how would you feel about a horse being slaughtered according to Kosher or halal principles

My son's ex works ifor Alberta agriculture, where part of her job is to inspect slaughter plants and animal slaughter in general. Kosher slaughter is not humane, nor standardized , and most important, is contrary to the set laws governing slaughter in this country

Religious freedom is great, as long as those beliefs don't interfer with anyone else, and in my opinion, also not on the way we treat our animals, who have no voice.

How about also turning a blind eye on people who come from countries where dogs are eaten,and often beat them first, to improve the flavor???

Live in this country, but the laws of thist country superceed any religious beliefs-JMO

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Slaughter done properly under Kosher/Halal laws is humane. If I planned on eating a horse I would not be adverse to my employer who is properly trained and experienced in the method of this slaughter performing it.

I also would not be adverse to someone who is experienced in the proper way to shoot it in the head.

Improperly done slaughter of any species in any method is inhumane.

Sat and debated about going into the whole politics and religion vs laws and all that, but decided I'm still not interested. Just glad I live in an area where I can choose between several methods of humane slaughter for our livestock.

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Is Poland having immigration problems? It seems a bit extreme to ban kosher because it is being done improperly. The problem should be handled by ensuring the improper kosher facility is inspected properly. The sounds too much like xenophobia to me.

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Being Jewish, and not wanting to get into a debate on this, I found Epona's posts quite to the point and very even handed. Of course I am not keeping Kosher all the time, but have had meats both Kosher, and Halal processed, and regularly killed and processed. I could NOT tell you which is which. But, I did note that when they killed the chickens for my Grandmother, who was orthodox, and did keep kosher, they did so very quickly, and bled them out, as well as removed any forbidden parts, before she was able to touch them and bring them home.

I do agree since both islam and the Jews originate in the same general area, they are like children about the whole hate thing!

Edited by siseley

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I believe the conflict in the Middle East between Israel and the surrounding Muslim nations has more to do with property than with religious differences. The Muslim nations and the Palestinian people resent Israel because they see them as usurpers. Not to mention the Israelis treatment of the Palestinians is pretty heinous seeing as how the Palestinians have as much right, historically, to that part of the world. If the Israelis would agree to share Israel with the Palestinians or work out some way to give the Palestinians there own country, then things might work out. But I don't think the Israelis know the meaning of the word compromise.

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my thoughts.

Religion and State need to be separated. We have slaughter laws in this country (I'm talking of Canada ) with facilities inspected by govenment agencies, so why should religious exceptions be given?

The animal is the looser, and I''m sure that animal is neither a Jew or a Muslim

We don't allow 'traditions' like female mutilation in tthis country, to satisfy some sect, so why should animals not also be protected under the laws of the country they live in?

Many here are opposed to horse slaughter-period-how would you feel about a horse being slaughtered according to Kosher or halal principles

My son's ex works ifor Alberta agriculture, where part of her job is to inspect slaughter plants and animal slaughter in general. Kosher slaughter is not humane, nor standardized , and most important, is contrary to the set laws governing slaughter in this country

Religious freedom is great, as long as those beliefs don't interfer with anyone else, and in my opinion, also not on the way we treat our animals, who have no voice.

How about also turning a blind eye on people who come from countries where dogs are eaten,and often beat them first, to improve the flavor???

Live in this country, but the laws of thist country superceed any religious beliefs-JMO

and this ^^ is the crux of the problem. given the sheer volume of product being shipped to the middle east, it is logistically impossible, just given the animal/slaughter house worker ratio, to practice kosher or halal principles to the letter of the scripture. but apparently--as smiley points out, the animal, who is neither jewish nor muslim is the one who suffers.

these folks can't agree on the gaza strip, but insist on the meat that they both comsume in nice sanitary packaging says "kosher". poland is the same country who gave europe lots and lots of canned and frozen product that said *beef* but was in reality horsemeat. not a moral judgement on eating horse simply an observation on truth in advertizing.

sisely and little cow, i am married to a german jew whose mother spent the better part of her childhood during WWII in the attics of friends and neighbors. THEY think the practice of halal is obsolete. my husband's father also forbade that he be circumcised. said the practice was "barbaric".

Edited by nick

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I am still suspicious of Poland's motives. I have heard some unfavorable things about how Poland treats Jews, in general, and Holocaust memorials.

We are exploring the idea of providing kosher chickens to a few local orthodox families. They would have to provide the person trained in the ritual slaughter. The knife they use is incredibly sharp and must be checked regularly (as someone else mentioned). Heck , it's much sharper than the ax we use to process our own. Hubby and I are always looking for improvements, so he now has a meticulously sharpened, specially made, knife to use next time. We are also going to try to remove the feathers and brine the chickens, using the kosher method. Really, most of the kosher part takes place after the chicken is dead and the killing part is very, very quick. I'll be happy to report back with the comparative results, but it won't be for a couple of months. We aren't ordering the chicks until it cools. Hubby wants to do the Cornish crosses (I hate them) and they do not handle heat well. We are doing this anyway, so no problem.

My point is that, properly done, it's probably nicer than the traditional backyard way my grandmother did it. :happy0203:

Edited by Little Cow

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