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tokengirl

100 Years Of Purebred Dog Breed "improvement"

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If people didn't buy inferior quality dogs, they wouldn't be bred. You can hardly blame an organization for the mistakes of it's members. If you want to find a quality bloodline then look farther than just the conformation ring. The truly outstanding individuals will win in the conformation ring and then go on and be successful in other venues - hunting, agility, obedience, flyball, lure coursing, etc.

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you can resent the fact that they're big on trying to force all breeds to conform to AKC standards that have nothing to do with performance. just read "the border collie wars" for a glimpse of that ugliness. reminds me of people who subscribe to a particular religion and trying to ram it down everybody else's throat.

there are enough lemmings out there that will drink the koolaid.

(where have you been!!)

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You have to blame the organization. Breeders didn't create the "new" GSD. The AKC set the conformation standards, in essence forcing breeders to change to the new standard to be in compliance.

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In reading some of the AKC standards for the sporting breeds, it does seem that they are stressing movement and ability. However, just like in AQHA, they can say all they want about standards and judging criteria but until ALL of the judges follow them, it will land on deaf ears. Having been in the dog show world only a year and a half (but still managing to finish my athletic and talented sporting=bred dog on my own) I have seen both ends of the spectrum - the judges that look for function and the judges that look for extreme. It is so similar to AQHA, because the judging really isn't standardized no matter how hard the parent organization attempts to make it so.

(I have been around...coming out of hibernation after a long football season :smilie: )

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You have to blame the organization. Breeders didn't create the "new" GSD. The AKC set the conformation standards, in essence forcing breeders to change to the new standard to be in compliance.

Here is a link to the AKC breed standard for GSD. What about it do you not agree with? Granted, many of the breeders have taken the words and pushed them to the extreme, but like I mentioned before that is hardly the parent organization's fault...it rests on the breeders and judges who reward them.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/breed_standard.cfm

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the picture in the top right hand corner. something sure as heck got lost in translation, because while the text sounds oh so performance and health oriented that is is a picture of a dog who is predestined for hip dyspasia, if he doesn't already have it. he doesn't look like he can "trot for extended periods of time" to me. it's even crept over here. i see 1 and 2 year old dogs with hips that are literally wobbling when they're just walking.

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You have to blame the organization. Breeders didn't create the "new" GSD. The AKC set the conformation standards, in essence forcing breeders to change to the new standard to be in compliance.

I wouldn't qualify those breeders as being quality breeders who are looking to improve the breed- simply a breeder who is in it for the money and conforms to whatever they are told to sell dogs. If you are breeding dogs like THAT- you are NOT in it for the betterment of the breed- which is exactly what a legit, professional breeder **SHOULD** be all about.

I think the breeders are to blame just as much as the organization. If not more. After all, THEY are the one bringing life to dogs that will likely have major health issues down the road. All for an extra buck.

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they're business people. you think pepsi cola is improving anybody's life? of course not, but there's a market.

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I think the breeders are to blame just as much as the organization. If not more. After all, THEY are the one bringing life to dogs that will likely have major health issues down the road. All for an extra buck.

I thought businesses were sacred institutions to which we should pay homage because they are the almighty job creators?

Why is that suddenly you seem resentful of these businesses ability to turn a profit, Blondyy? It's all about the free market. God bless capitalism.

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they're business people. you think pepsi cola is improving anybody's life? of course not, but there's a market.

PEOPLE have a choice on whether or not to drink Pepsi.

Dogs who are brought into this world do not have a choice. I am sorry but the business mindset when dealing with LIVE ANIMALS (a.k.a NOT machines but living, breathing beings who can feel) is not an excuse and it CERTAINLY doesn't make them good people because they use the excuse that "it's a business."

If you want to breed dogs that you know are going to have issues in life because of what you chose to breed- you aren't a good person, no matter what lame excuse you try to come up with.

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I thought businesses were sacred institutions to which we should pay homage because they are the almighty job creators?

Why is that suddenly you seem resentful of these businesses ability to turn a profit, Blondyy? It's all about the free market. God bless capitalism.

Once again, because people have CHOICE.

When Pepsi makers pump out their product, people have the choice if they want to drink or not.

Dogs are not products. They are living breathing animals and any real breeder recognizes that. Stupid people who breed these mutated animals who go on to have painful lives because of the choices of this so called breeders- well these breeders should be shot. World would be a better place.

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^^this is the argument of a child.

No, it is the argument of someone with common sense who has compassion for ALL beings and not just humans. Animals have feelings just like we do and feel pain just like we do too.

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^^ edited to add "this is the argument of a child having a temper tantrum".

and an argument that nobody will pay any attention to in "the evil world of unethical dog breeders" so unhelpful to boot.

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Yes, the breeders have a choice too. So do the buyers. And they are exercising their freedom of choice. Why would you seek to take away the freedoms of American dog owners and stifle the entrepreneurial spirit of small business in this country? Sounds like communism to me.

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^^ edited to add "this is the argument of a child having a temper tantrum".

and an argument that nobody will pay any attention to in "the evil world of unethical dog breeders" so unhelpful to boot.

First, not a temper tantrum. Just stating facts. You seem to think I get "mad" in a lot of my postings and I cannot imagine why. Just stating the things that need to be stated.

Second, if you are breeding dogs that walk around like the above that has been posted, yes, it is evil. I am sorry you are so un-compassionate in regards to animal life.

Karma is a biotch. We will all answer for intentionally harmful acts we commit against other living beings.

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Yes, the breeders have a choice too. So do the buyers. And they are exercising their freedom of choice. Why would you seek to take away the freedoms of American dog owners and stifle the entrepreneurial spirit of small business in this country? Sounds like communism to me.

For the same reason that puppy mills get shut down.

It is not ethical in the least. The animals suffer. There are laws protecting animals... doesn't mean it is communism.

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Yes, there are laws. Food, water, shelter and not being assaulted or tortured. I see no evidence of any of that in regards to German Shepherds. So looks like you are trying to impose your own opinion on an entire industry made up entirely of small business, by suggesting legislation that punishes the business owners who are simply filling a demand in the market. The FREE market. People have choices. They are exercising their freedom of choice in the market of GSDs. If people feel as you do, they will vote with their checkbooks and the problem will take care of itself, without the need for Stalin to jump in and "save" everyone. Businesses self regulate, don't they? If they produce an inferior product, they will go out of business sooner or later. Right?

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you need a course in economics 101 for a reality check. only if you're really interested in helping animals, that is.

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Yes, there are laws. Food, water, shelter and not being assaulted or tortured. I see no evidence of any of that in regards to German Shepherds. So looks like you are trying to impose your own opinion on an entire industry made up entirely of small business, by suggesting legislation that punishes the business owners who are simply filling a demand in the market. The FREE market. People have choices. They are exercising their freedom of choice in the market of GSDs. If people feel as you do, they will vote with their checkbooks and the problem will take care of itself, without the need for Stalin to jump in and "save" everyone. Businesses self regulate, don't they? If they produce an inferior product, they will go out of business sooner or later. Right?

Did I say that government needs to step in?

I agree that there is a market for it, obviously if there wasn't they wouldn't be producing them. I think both the AKC, breeders and the people who show these poor dogs are responsible for it. One's definition of torture can differ. Having a 70-100 lb. dog walking around like that, I would imagine, especially in the dog's older years, could be very problematic.

Unfortunately, this is how the world is run. Animals aren't given a passing thought. So long as someone makes the buck, that is all that matters, no matter how big the price an animal has to pay.

I am more for animal rights than I am for the "rights" of unethical breeders. If I were president, you are darn right I'd go after these people that cause animals to suffer needlessly. But I am not so there isn't much I can do... other than hope people arm themselves with some knowledge and stop doing what they do to animals. Not likely since there is money to be made though. Sad world for sure.

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you need a course in economics 101 for a reality check. only if you're really interested in helping animals, that is.

Oh Nickaroo... I am very educated about the way the world works. People will do anything for a buck. Heck, people harm other people for a buck so yes, reality is, people do horrible things for money, this included.

I am not naive in that way. I have had things done to myself, from others, that no one should have to go through. People are vile creatures.

Regardless, I really do not care what it is that you think I need dear Nicky. However, for the life of me, I do not understand how you think me "understanding" this breeding of mutated animals will help animals in the long run. It's sick. It's gross. But given how humans are, it is unfortunately, not surprising.

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^^this post is mutated. i never said understanding breeding practices would *help* animals, it would just be helpful in general if people understood how markets work before making abstract statements about the breeding industry. the OP was about AKC standards and the influence on breeding over the years. ethics in my view have played no role, but then they rarely do. that's what you learn in econ 101.

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^^this post is mutated. i never said understanding breeding practices would *help* animals, it would just be helpful in general if people understood how markets work before making abstract statements about the breeding industry. the OP was about AKC standards and the influence on breeding over the years. ethics in my view have played no role, but then they rarely do. that's what you learn in econ 101.

Lack of ethics plays a major role in breeding those sub-par german shepherds in the video that was posted on the first page. Ethics are moral principles. No one with ethics would breed the animals that are in that video. While moral principles are not discussed in economics 101- because economics 101 is about money- not ethics, I understand what you mean. But when dealing with LIVE ANIMALS- ethics should be a very big part of the business plan.

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In other words, the market drives production, and wins in the show ring fuel the market. So wins in the show ring=producing GSDs with fatal conformation so if you want to stop the production of fatally conformed GSDs, you have to change what wins in the ring. Very simple. Ethics play no part in business by definition. Are we learning something?

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In other words, the market drives production, and wins in the show ring fuel the market. So wins in the show ring=producing GSDs with fatal conformation so if you want to stop the production of fatally conformed GSDs, you have to change what wins in the ring. Very simple. Ethics play no part in business by definition. Are we learning something?

I never said it does. I said it SHOULD.

The job of ANY REPUTABLE breeder is betterment of the breed. The dogs shown in the video are weak and not up to task for what these dogs were bred for. They are diverging from what the task of a breeder is suppose to be.

Breeding living beings vrs. a can of soda are two entirely different things. A can of soda does not think or act. Yes, two are "products" made by someone else to sell for profit- a.k.a. a business, but there is a big difference between a good reputable breeder and the things some "breeders" are popping out. You are not a good, reputable breeder when you are producing the above in the video.

For instance, products from China are considered to be cheap and that they break all the time. Given this reputation, they are still the biggest selling items because for one, they are cheap and two, they serve a purpose for a short period of time and when they break, they are easily replaced. Then, you have products made in America where pride is shown in the product. It may cost more, but it will get the job done better and will last a lot longer. Just because a product sells well, doesn't mean the product is good, or that the company is a good company for making their inferior product.

Further Token, I always have known ethics doesn't play a part in business. Any half wit can look around and tell that. But when dealing with living animals, it should be a big part of it. Not saying it does, but there are many reputable breeders who believes in ethics with their animals and it shows. Look at Blackfish. You think that is wrong. Ethics are out big time there. But it doesn't mean they SHOULDN'T be there.

Edited by Blondyy

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I think things here are getting a bit exaggerated. In all of the shows I have been to, I have yet to see a "mutated" or "fatal" dog that was so malformed it was a death sentence. I have seen a handful of animals who were bred to the extreme, so maybe their angles were a bit more extreme...but they certainly weren't "fatal". Granted, most dog breeds have changed from their origins 100+ years ago, but then so have horses, and for that matter so have people! Has society's needs and lifestyles change, so do the people and animals that share it. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

I am not saying that there are no bad examples out there, but overall I think the majority of dog people want to produce a successful puppy that is not only conformationally correct, but talented also.

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I think things here are getting a bit exaggerated. In all of the shows I have been to, I have yet to see a "mutated" or "fatal" dog that was so malformed it was a death sentence. I have seen a handful of animals who were bred to the extreme, so maybe their angles were a bit more extreme...but they certainly weren't "fatal". Granted, most dog breeds have changed from their origins 100+ years ago, but then so have horses, and for that matter so have people! Has society's needs and lifestyles change, so do the people and animals that share it. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

I am not saying that there are no bad examples out there, but overall I think the majority of dog people want to produce a successful puppy that is not only conformationally correct, but talented also.

You think the shepherds in the video posted on the first page are not malformed? I think they are. You see the one dog falls over... cannot even run in a pen without falling over.

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You think the shepherds in the video posted on the first page are not malformed? I think they are. You see the one dog falls over... cannot even run in a pen without falling over.

Yes, and do you see those shepherds in the AKC show ring? Heck, that video wasn't even shot in the U.S., so you can hardly blame AKC and show dog breeders for that. Dogs like that would never be placed in the show ring. It's like looking at a malformed quarter horse at the local kill auction and blaming the entire AQHA and show world for that horse that some idiot backyard breeder bred.

There are lots and lots of beautiful show dogs that are athletic and healthy...in fact I would go as far as to say 99% of them are. Here is mine:

Show dog...

pretzel_monroewin_lite.jpg

...And athlete

pretzel_firsttrial_jump7.jpg

And you know what? This isn't all that unusual, because if a sporting or working-bred dog is successful in the show ring it generally has the conformation to do athletic events also. You can't really compare this to companion breed show dogs like pugs or other toy breeds, because they were bred over the years to simply be a companion and lap-warmer...not perform. Many many show-bred GSDs go on to do obedience, agility, and other specialized events that showcase their talents. Those icky-looking ones in the video are NOT typical of what you see in the USA at AKC shows.

Edited by CoolRabbit

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Again, videos not shot in the US. All I can say is from what I have experienced FIRSTHAND as I have attended shows throughout the region here, the GSDs I see winning look NOTHING like that. When I am home, I will look up some videos of dogs I have actually seen in person and witnessed winning and you can see the difference for yourself. While in the show ring, these dogs (the ones I have seen) do crouch down low in their hind end, it's really based on training, and when they are out playing or running around they move quite normally. Not sure why they have to be shown like that when no other breed is like that, but that's another question for another day LOL!

BTW, in thge first part of the video (I assume shot in England???) that show is in no way a "top" show. they show the GSD pacing in the show ring and that is a HUGE penalty for any breed. No winning dog will be pacing in the show ring, even if it is the only dog in the class (I see judges withhold ribbons all the time from dogs that might have gotten a placing by default, but were not worthy - a practice many horse show judges should embrace!).

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