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wisecomp

Rodeo: Yay Or Nay?

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I suspect anyone attempting to reach under there to hook said nut sack would get their head kicked off!

I know *I* certainly wouldn't want to see it attempted. Nor try it ... getting a bull in the chute and squeezing it to restrain him so you can semen test him tells me what I need to know about bulls and the protection of their family jewels. Ever see how they semen test them? It's not pretty nor for the faint of heart!

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So Andi,

Because I live in the state of FL, which is one of the largest beef producing states, it makes me no expert. But how does being a spectator at rodeos make you an expert in what you are talking about?

I see you had nothing to say in regards to my article posted, from a well educated veterinarian, who was also a rodeo vet, was raised on a ranch, AND was pivvy to information from MEAT INSPECTORS, on the damage that rodeos cause these animals.

So, we can either take your word, from a spectator at a rodeo who claims these animals are not hurt- OR, we can take the word of a well educated veterinarian who has seen first hand the damage caused, and then we have the meat inspectors who are cutting open these animals and seeing all the damage done as well.

In case you were too lazy to open the link, I will go back to the article and copy and paste it here.

Further, I think we can safely say that maybe the flank strap isn't on a bulls frank and beans, BUT, we can say that it is in a very sensitive spot, pressing on sensitive reproductive organs.

Edited by Blondyy

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I suspect anyone attempting to reach under there to hook said nut sack would get their head kicked off!

Read more: http://forums.horsecity.com/index.php?showtopic=47103461&page=4#ixzz2yWvrZm3z

Do you think he would buck? I take exception to your statement that an animal in pain won't buck. My horse bucks when he gets a horsefly on him. I know they hurt when they bite. When someone on the forums here ask for advice about a horse that bucks, they are always told by others to check saddle fit, because it may be hurting him.

Also, when I fed this evening, I put the weight tape around my gelding's flank where the flank strap would go. It did touch the very front edge of his sheath. He pinned his ears and lifted his back leg...not happy with the maneuver. If he bucked out and fully extended his stifle, I'm sure it would slip back further. And didn't a flank strap used to be called a "bucking strap?" Blondy made a good point about using the "cue" on a different part of the body, if the strap is only a cue.

I'm not criticizing your fondness for rodeo. To each his own. I got over my obsession with it when I saw a calf's neck broken in calf roping many years ago.

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Smilie I've seen some "double duty" horses. One I remember well was bucked out and stripped of his rigging, then, to prove how gentle and rideable he really was the contractor put his little boy (about 6 years old) up on him bareback and the kid rode him out of the arena with nothing but a halter. The contractor also used him for roping. Just another horse trained to 2 disciplines like many others :smilie:

Edited by rattusrat

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RODEO IS CRUEL ENTERTAINMENT
Peggy W. Larson, DVM, MS, JD

Many of us who have been raised around livestock are concerned about the
inherently inhumane treatment of animals in the rodeo. It takes knowledge of
livestock and awareness of the animal in the rodeo event to understand that
these animals are being injured. I grew up on a farm/ranch with both dairy
and beef cattle. Before I went to college, I was a rodeo competitor, riding
the bucking horses on the Native American circuit. Women are not allowed to
participate in the professional rodeo association rodeos. (1) After
graduation from veterinary college, I cared for bucking horses in my large
animal practice. (2) During my career as a veterinarian and as an attorney, I
became very concerned about the treatment of rodeo animals. Currently I am
active in educating the public and working with local and state officials to
change animal cruelty laws to protect rodeo animals.

Often rodeo promoters claim that rodeo is similar to ranching. This is not
true. No rancher forces his horse to buck using a bucking strap around its
flanks or drives blunt spurs into its shoulders. The rancher's horses are
too valuable and well trained to risk injuring them by making them buck.
Calves are herded into a corral, chased down a chute into a head gate where
they are humanely held until they are treated or prepared for the feedlot.
Seldom are calves roped. They are never choked and dragged as they are in
the rodeo because injury to the calves causes the rancher to lose money. (3)
Calves are the rancher's "cash crop". Ranchers never ride bulls or wrestle
steers.

Rodeo is not part of our heritage, as rodeo promoters also claim. Wild
horses were caught and tamed; they were never forced to buck. Calves were
indeed roped but not repeatedly until they were injured or killed. It is
unlikely that a calf was ever roped more than once or twice in its life.
Also, there was no time element when the calf was roped on a ranch. In a
rodeo, calf roping is a timed event. The competitor who ropes and ties the
calf in the shortest time wins. The calf is forced to run at top speed
(about 25 mph) and then stopped so violently with a rope around its neck that
it often jerked completely off its feet and slammed to the ground. (4) The
timed events cause injury because time is more important than the welfare of
the calf. There is no part of our heritage where a cowboy on a ranch ever
rode a bull. Bulls were for breeding and too valuable to risk injury. Also
cowboys did not wrestle steers because there was no need to do this in any
ranch activity.

Injuries and deaths in rodeo animals
The most serious rodeo injuries occur in the following events: 1) calf
roping,
2) steer tripping or steer "busting", 3) steer wrestling, 4) wild horse
"roundups", and 5) horse tripping (Mexican style rodeos). In California
alone, 9 horses and cattle were been killed in rodeo events from 1995-1997.
Three horses and two steers were killed at the Salinas rodeo in July of 1995.
(5) At the Calgary Stampede in 1995, 3 horses and one steer had to be
destroyed because of injuries. (6) Animals are also injured in the bucking
events. Horses and bulls break their legs. Injuries to the skin are common
from bucking straps, bite wounds from other horses, kick wounds from over
crowded corrals, tears and abrasions from contact with trailers and chutes.
Unfortunately for the animal, the skin and hair covers bruises and broken
ribs. (7) videos
Documented evidence of injuries to rodeo animals includes the findings of Dr.
C. G. Haber, a veterinarian with thirty years experience as a meat inspector
for the USDA. Dr. Haber states, "The rodeo folks send their animals to the
packing houses where� I have seen cattle so extensively bruised that the only
areas in which the skin was attached was the head, neck, legs and belly. I
have seen animals with six to eight ribs broken from the spine and at times
puncturing the lungs. I have seen as much as two and three gallons of free
blood accumulated under the detached skin." (8)

A career USDA meat inspection veterinarian, Dr. Robert Fetzner, Director of
Slaughter Operations for FSIS (USDA) stated in our phone conversation on
September 9, 1998, "Lots of rodeo animals went to slaughter. I found broken
ribs, punctured lungs, hematomas, broken legs, severed tracheas and the
ligamenta nuchae were torn loose." Torn ligamenta nuchae are broken necks.
Dr. Fetzner saw these animals when he was the meat inspector at the Cheyenne,
Wyoming slaughter plant. (9)

Dr. Temple Grandin at Colorado State University works with the cattle
industry on humane treatment of animals. She states that a bucking horse
badly broke its front leg in the rodeo and was shipped, with its leg
dangling, across two states in a transport truck with other horses. It died
before it could be humanely slaughtered. She also states that transport
injuries and fighting are major causes of injuries in horses. Rodeo horses
are constantly in transit. (10)

Dr. T. K. Hardy, a veterinarian who is also a calf roper, states that calf
roping is an expensive sport. He says that 2 or 3 calves are injured in each
practice session and have to be replaced. Calves cost $200 and up, depending
upon the market. One needs to recognize that every calf roper who competes
in the rodeo must spend hours practicing. The practice calves are roped over
and over again until they are injured badly enough to be replaced. (11)

Also at issue is how the bovine reacts to the electric prod. According to
the Textbook of Veterinary Medicine, cattle are highly susceptible to
electrical current. (12) Cows can detect electrical voltage when humans,
dogs and horses cannot. "Stray voltage" is a common occurrence in dairy
barns. The cows are affected but the humans cannot feel the electrical
current. (13) Using the prod to enhance performance is against the
Professional Rodeo Cowboy Association rules. (14) Even they consider
excessive use of the prod to be inhumane. Yet the PRCA rodeos constantly use
the prod inappropriately. (15) videos
Laws and ordinances affecting rodeo
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Ordinance (16)
One of the most effective ordinances against rodeo animal abuse is the
Pittsburgh ordinance. This ordinance bans electric prods or shocking
devices, flank or bucking straps, wire tie-downs and sharpened or fixed spurs
or rowels. It also requires that an appropriate humane agency be notified at
least 14 calendar days prior to the rodeo. The humane agents shall be
provided access to the areas where the animals are held. A licensed,
practicing large animal veterinarian must be present during the entire rodeo
and has complete authority over the treatment and utilization of the rodeo
animals. Penalties include a fine and/or imprisonment.

Rhode Island (17)
A licensed large animal veterinarian must be present for the entire duration
of the rodeo. The veterinarian has complete authority over the injured
animal. The animal control officer must be notified that the rodeo is being
held. Calves can only be roped with "breakaway" ropes so that the calf is
not subjected to a sudden stop or fall.

Ohio (18)
No person can use or all to be used on any work animal any of the following
devices: twisted wire snaffles, unpadded bucking straps, unpadded flank
straps, electric or other prods, or similar devices.

California, New Mexico, Maine, Texas, Illinois (19)
Horse tripping (common in Mexican rodeos) is prohibited. The Texas State
Attorney General ruled that the tripping of horses constitutes torture and is
thus illegal under their state anti-cruelty law.

Ft. Wayne, Indiana Ordinance (20)
No person shall conduct or allow rodeos within the city limits.

Baltimore City, Maryland (21)
This ordinance prohibits the use of any equipment that would /can cause
physical pain or injury. Curb bits (commonly used in Western saddle horses),
twisted wire and snaffles (bits), and spurs are not permitted. Horses cannot
be beaten or prodded to maintain a fast gait.

Baltimore County, Maryland (22)
No person shall beat, torment, overload, overwork or otherwise abuse any
animal or cause, instigate or permit any calf roping or other combat between
animals and humans. Electrical prods or shocking devices are prohibited at
rodeos and similar events except for the purpose of herding or managing the
livestock.
Alameda County, California (23)
A veterinarian and an animal control officer must be in attendance throughout
the duration of every event using animals. The veterinarian cannot be a
contestant or participate in any of the animal events. The Animal Control
Office and the Alameda County SPCA shall be notified not less than 14 days in
advance of the rodeo. The notification must contain a written description of
the animal events and a copy of the rules governing the events shall be
submitted.

Bills which have been proposed
Maryland (not law) (24)
A person may not use an inhumane device at a rodeo. Inhumane device means
any chemical, mechanical, electrical or manual instrument used to agitate,
activate, stimulate, or move an animal through torture, torment or cruelty.
This includes electric prods or other shocking devices, whips, clubs,
sharpened spurs, and any form of rope, wire, or strap designed to irritate
the sexual organs of an animal. A licensed veterinarian must be in
attendance throughout the rodeo. He/she cannot be a contestant.

Hawaii (not law) (25)
A person commits the offense of cruelty to rodeo animals if the person
induces animal performance through the use of any practice or technique, or
any chemical, mechanical, electric or manual device that will cause or is
likely to cause physical injury, torment or suffering or uses the following
devices that are specifically prohibited at all rodeos: electric prods or
shocking devices, flank or bucking straps, wire tie-downs, sharpened spurs
and bullwhips.

In our culture, violence sells. Which movies and TV shows are popular? The
violent and destructive ones! Why is rodeo popular? As one rodeo fan
stated, "Yes, it is violent, but the more violent the better." (26)

Psychologists and behaviorists are studying the effect of animal abuse on
children. (27) Many criminals tortured or killed animals as children. Ted
Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and two of the children who killed other children in
1998 are examples. Many parents do not believe that children should attend
rodeos because rodeo is violent towards animals. (28) I feel that rodeo is
violence using animals and marketed as family entertainment.



Bibliography
(1) Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association rules and the International
Rodeo Cowboys Association rules
(2) Peggy W. Larson, DVM, MS, JD. Private practice in large animal
medicine in Devils Lake, North Dakota. 1969 through 1977
(3) Ibid. Part of my large animal practice was working with ranch animals
(4) Personal experience as a rodeo competitor. Working with ABC's Hard
Copy rodeo animal abuse. Observation of rodeo videos taken for the Hard
Copy story.
(5) Eric Mills, Oakland, California. Action for Animals. Personal
conversation.
(6) Stephen Ewart, Reporter, The Chroncile-Herald, Calgary, Saskatchewan ,
Canada, July 14, 1995
(7) Ibid. (4). Personal experience.
(8) C. G. Haber, DVM, from an interview in 1977 by the Humane Society of the
United States
(9) Personal conversation with Dr. Fetzner on September 9, 1998. Dr.
Fetzner is Director of Slaughter Operations for Food Safety and Inspection
(FSIS) for the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA).
(10) Personal conversation with Dr. Grandin, Professor at the College of
Veterinary Medicine in Colorado on September 23, 1998.
(11) Internet website
weber.u.washington.edu/~sfal/filecabinet/leaflets/rodeos.html
(12) Textbook of Veterinary Medicine by Blood and Radostits, 7th Edition
published by Bailliere Tindall, 1989, page 552, "free" or "stray"
electricity as a cause of failure of milk letdown.
(13) Ibid.
(14) Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association Humane Facts, Rule 9.4 on page
14.
(15) Ibid. (4)
(16) Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Ordinance 29-1992, sections 635.04, .05, .06,
.07, .08, effective 1992.
(17) Rhode Island Statute as compiled by the Humane Society of the United
States in November, 1996
(18) Ohio Statute as compiled by the Humane Society of the United States in
November, 1996.
(19) California, New Mexico, Maine, Texas and Illinois Statutes as compiled
by the Humane Society of the United States in November, 1996.
(20) Fort Wayne, Indiana Ordinance as compiled by the Humane Society of the
United States in November, 1996.
(21) Baltimore City, Maryland Ordinance as compiled by the Humane Society
of the United States in November, 1996
(22) Baltimore County, Maryland Ordinance as compiled by the Humane Society
of the United States in November, 1996.
(23) Alameda County, California Ordinance as compiled by the Humane Society
of the United States in November, 1996.
(24) Maryland proposed bill as compiled by the Humane Society of the United
States in November, 1996.
(25) Hawaii proposed bill as compiled by the Humane Society of the United
States in November, 1996.
(26) Personal conversation with a rodeo fan in Glastonbury, CT in August,
1998
(27) Internet websites (multiple)
(28) Many conversations with families who are concerned about rodeo
violence (New Jersey, Connecticut, Vermont, California, Chicago, North
Dakota, Maine, Massachusetts, New York)

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I suspect anyone attempting to reach under there to hook said nut sack would get their head kicked off!

Read more: http://forums.horsecity.com/index.php?showtopic=47103461&page=4#ixzz2yWvrZm3z

Do you think he would buck? I take exception to your statement that an animal in pain won't buck. My horse bucks when he gets a horsefly on him. I know they hurt when they bite. When someone on the forums here ask for advice about a horse that bucks, they are always told by others to check saddle fit, because it may be hurting him.

Also, when I fed this evening, I put the weight tape around my gelding's flank where the flank strap would go. It did touch the very front edge of his sheath. He pinned his ears and lifted his back leg...not happy with the maneuver. If he bucked out and fully extended his stifle, I'm sure it would slip back further. And didn't a flank strap used to be called a "bucking strap?" Blondy made a good point about using the "cue" on a different part of the body, if the strap is only a cue.

I'm not criticizing your fondness for rodeo. To each his own. I got over my obsession with it when I saw a calf's neck broken in calf roping many years ago.

A friend of mine used to own a cracker horse that did that... he was generally a good, well trained horse. Could put a newbie on him and he would be fine. But if you put that saddle too far forward, I am assuming it hurt him, and he would launch into a series of bronc bucks.

Out of curiosity tonight, I messed around the same area that people are saying this flank strap touches. My horse is normally laid back and whatever. I ran my fingers lightly in the area and she got very antsy and didn't like it at all. It is a very sensitive spot for them... and if it is sensitize enough for a horse to act like that, I would imagine a strap in that area would make quite a few animals buck and would likely hurt.

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I never claimed that an animal in pain won't buck. I said an animal in pain won't buck consistently and correctly.

And the strap isn't tight. And yes, in the flanks is a ticklish area. Some horses are more sensitive than others.

And Blondyy, I'm not just an observer. I actually know stock contractors. I've been involved behind the scenes. And no, I didn't read the propaganda you posted but thanks.

ANY sport, ANY event, ANY thing we do with livestock can be deemed "cruel". If you are a card carrying SHARK supporter, riding a horse can be considered cruel. Eating an animal is cruel. Milking a cow is cruel. AI'ing a cow is considered "rape".

And even though you posted the entire drivel, I still have no desire to read the whole thing but a couple pieces jumped out at me. The whole part about not being a part of ranch life. Whatever. She can believe what she wants but I actually SEE this on a regular basis and understand where it got it's roots.

And Florida is NOT one of the largest beef producing states, sorry. It ranks 18th/19th (tied with PA):

http://www.cattlerange.com/cattle-graphs/all-cattle-numbers.html

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Flank Straps

A flank strap is a piece of equipment positioned in the flank of a bucking horse. The outside of the "flank" is typically leather, and the inside, the side that touches the horse, is lined with sheepskin or neoprene. A flank strap is used to alter the bucking action of the horse by encouraging him to kick out higher and straighter with his hind legs. The flank strap stacks the odds in favor of the horse, and it cannot not make him buck.

The most often repeated fallacy regarding flank straps is that they are designed to cause a horse pain, usually described as putting painful pressure either on a horse's kidneys or genitals. However, a flank strap cannot put pressure on the kidneys as they are shielded by the horse's rib cage, and one quick look underneath a male or female horse lets one know it is physically impossible to cover the genitals with a flank strap.

That painful pressure on the flanks alone is enough to make a horse buck violently is another falsehood. In fact, causing a horse pain with pressure in the flanks makes a horse reluctant to move. Intentionally putting painful pressure in the flank area of a large animal is a very old technique called "girding." Before modern pharmaceuticals such as tranquilizers were common, girding was often used to restrain large animals for medical treatment. To pull a flank strap too tightly on a rodeo animal would cause him to be reluctant to move, let alone buck in the powerful, athletic and wide range of motion required of a rodeo bronc.

Last but certainly not least, even a flank strap that is not causing a horse pain cannot make him buck. On a true bronc the flank alters the bucking action of the bronc as described earlier. On a horse with no interest in bucking the flank strap might momentarily surprise a horse and cause it to take a couple of half?hearted leaps, but more often has no effect at all. Watching a reported "man killer" gallop happily to the end of the arena - bronc rider on board and flank strap in place - is a frustrating sight witnessed all too often by a stock contractor auditioning a potential new bronc.

http://www.naiaonline.org/articles/article/is-rodeo-bronc-riding-cruel

The outside of the flank strap is made of leather. The inside is lined with sheepskin or neoprene. Rodeo rules specify the flank strap must be lined with enough sheepskin to cover the belly of the horse and both flanks, and that no sharp or cutting edges of any kind be present. These rules are consistent with what animal behaviorists have taught us regarding animals such as the horse: his first reaction to pain or danger stimuli is to flee. A horse who is afraid or in pain won’t buck, he will try to run away.

A horse has 18 ribs, and the kidneys are protected by the ribs. It is physically impossible to damage these major organs with the flank strap as the strap is nowhere near them. It is also physically impossible to cover the genitals - of a male or female horse - with the flank strap.

So if these horses really want to buck on their own, why use a flank strap? The flank strap alters the bucking action of the horse by encouraging him to kick out straighter and higher with his hind legs, thus making himself harder to ride. The flank stacks the odds in favor of the horse. It cannot make him buck.

In fact, the flank strap is so acceptable to the bronc that he can become "broke" to it very easily. This is why the pickup men move in so quickly at the end of the bronc ride. They want to get the flank off the bronc as quickly as possible so he won’t become accustomed to it.

This is the same reason the flank strap is hung very loosely and very far forward on the bronc waiting his turn in the chute. It is not "pulled" until the very last second before the bronc takes his first leap into the arena. The flank strap is never tied, and loosens with each buck the horse takes. It is also equipped with a quick release handle to facilitate it’s fast removal. All these measures are taken to prevent the bronc from becoming "broke" to the fleece or neoprene lined flank.

What happens when a horse with no natural inclination to buck is flanked? It may take a couple of leaps - not bucks - then simply run to the end of the arena. In fact, this is an all-too common sight for the stock contractor. Since rodeo broncs are extremely hard to find, the contractor is always willing to try a reported bucker. Watching a "mankiller" gallop happily to the end of the arena - bronc rider on board and flank strap in place - is a frustrating sight witnessed all too often by the stock contractor.

http://www.cowboyway.com/BroncRiding.htm

THE FACTS ABOUT FLANK STRAPS

Horses
  • The flank strap is a sheepskin-lined or padded leather strap.
  • It is adjustable to fit each individual horse.
  • It is done up and released by a quick-release catch.
  • It is not possible to make an animal buck simply by adding a flank strap. If this were the case, then any horse could be a bucking horse. In actual fact, a good bucking horse is very hard to find. It will buck only if it wants to and the flank strap merely enhances that motion.
  • It is an aid, just like any other equestrian aid (eg. the whip used by jockeys, spurs used by pony club riders) to enhance or encourage a particular desired outcome. In the case of the flank strap the desired outcome is to enhance the bucking action, to have the animal kick outwards and upwards.
  • On a new bucking horse, the strap around its flank causes a tickle, or at most an irritation (but so does any new piece of equipment on a new horse - even a saddle). On a practised bucking horse, the flank strap acts as a conditioning tool. ie. the animal learns to associate the flank strap with performing.
  • The flank is not pulled tight to cause bucking. It is pre-set so that it can only be pulled up to a certain point and no further. (If you look closely at a photo of a bucking horse kicking out you may notice daylight between the strap and the animal's body).
  • In the past it was common practice on farms and stations for stockmen and vets to use a rope pulled tightly around the flank area of large animals in order to disable their back legs and bring them to the ground. (This method is still employed where anaesthetic is not available). This is in complete opposition to the aims of the rodeo competitor, who wants full, unrestricted movement.
  • The flank strap is fitted loosely while the animal stands in the chute. As the gate is opened and it leaves the chute, the strap is pulled up to its limit (snug to medium, depending on the preference of the horse). To do so earlier would risk injury to horse and rider as the pulling up of the strap is a cue for the animal to kick up and out.
  • Flank straps are not laced with spikes and other irritants as some people have falsely claimed. A rider is seeking as high a score as possible and to harm his horse will have the opposite effect. Since half of a competitor's score is taken on the horse's performance, it is in his interests to treat it well.
  • The flank strap is not tied around an animal's genitals. This is a physical impossibility and those who claim this need an anatomy lesson. It is more akin to us wearing a snug belt around the waist. Furthermore, if genitalia were the aim then you would see flank straps fitted under the tails of bucking mares!
Bulls
  • The flank strap is a simple, sheepskin-covered rope.
  • It is tied snugly around the bull’s flank area using a simple quick-release knot, prior to release from the chute.
  • It does not interfere with the bull’s genitals.
  • It does not injure the animal in any way (including rubbing, abrasions etc.)
  • Many bulls are especially bred to buck and they know when, and when not, to perform. Often they will cease bucking as soon as their rider leaves their back, even though the flank strap is still attached.

http://www.rodeotasmania.com/facts.php

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I never claimed that an animal in pain won't buck. I said an animal in pain won't buck consistently and correctly.

And the strap isn't tight. And yes, in the flanks is a ticklish area. Some horses are more sensitive than others.

And Blondyy, I'm not just an observer. I actually know stock contractors. I've been involved behind the scenes. And no, I didn't read the propaganda you posted but thanks.

ANY sport, ANY event, ANY thing we do with livestock can be deemed "cruel". If you are a card carrying SHARK supporter, riding a horse can be considered cruel. Eating an animal is cruel. Milking a cow is cruel. AI'ing a cow is considered "rape".

And even though you posted the entire drivel, I still have no desire to read the whole thing but a couple pieces jumped out at me. The whole part about not being a part of ranch life. Whatever. She can believe what she wants but I actually SEE this on a regular basis and understand where it got it's roots.

And Florida is NOT one of the largest beef producing states, sorry. It ranks 18th/19th (tied with PA):

http://www.cattlerange.com/cattle-graphs/all-cattle-numbers.html

Propaganda? So, essentially, anything anyone posts against YOUR view is considered propaganda? Wouldn't your information be propaganda as well? You make absolutely no sense.

Actually, we are 10th in the nation, and the third largest on the east coast... and we are home to the LARGEST cattle ranch IN THE NATION.

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Propaganda? So, essentially, anything anyone posts against YOUR view is considered propaganda? Wouldn't your information be propaganda as well? You make absolutely no sense.

Actually, we are 10th in the nation, and the third largest on the east coast... and we are home to the LARGEST cattle ranch IN THE NATION.

Well, the Cattleman's association would disagree with you:

Rank State 2014 2013 % Change 2014 as

% of Total . 1 Texas 10,900,000 11,300,000 -3.54% 12.42% 2 Nebraska 6,150,000 6,300,000 -2.38% 7.01% 3 Kansas 5,800,000 5,850,000 -0.85% 6.61% 4 California 5,250,000 5,300,000 -0.94% 5.98% 5 Oklahoma 4,300,000 4,200,000 +2.38% 4.90% 6 Missouri 3,800,000 3,650,000 +4.11% 4.33% 7 Iowa 3,700,000 3,850,000 -3.90% 4.22% 8 South Dakota 3,650,000 3,850,000 -5.19% 4.16% 9 Wisconsin 3,350,000 3,450,000 -2.90% 3.82% 10 Montana 2,550,000 2,600,000 -1.92% 2.91% 11 Colorado 2,480,000 2,600,000 -4.62% 2.83% 12 Minnesota 2,280,000 2,390,000 -4.60% 2.60% 13 Idaho 2,190,000 2,370,000 -7.59% 2.50% 14 Kentucky 2,090,000 2,240,000 -6.70% 2.38% 15 North Dakota 1,770,000 1,790,000 -1.12% 2.02% 16 Tennessee 1,760,000 1,830,000 -3.83% 2.01% 17 Arkansas 1,660,000 1,600,000 +3.75% 1.89% 18/19 Florida 1,620,000 1,660,000 -2.41% 1.85% 18/19 Pennsylvania 1,620,000 1,610,000 +0.62% 1.85% 20 Virginia 1,530,000 1,610,000 -4.97% 1.74% 21 New York 1,450,000 1,400,000 +3.57% 1.65% 22 New Mexico 1,290,000 1,340,000 -3.73% 1.47% 23 Oregon 1,280,000 1,280,000 +0.00% 1.46% 24 Wyoming 1,270,000 1,290,000 -1.55% 1.45% 25 Ohio 1,250,000 1,230,000 +1.63% 1.42% 26 Alabama 1,240,000 1,220,000 +1.64% 1.41% 27 Illinois 1,130,000 1,120,000 +0.89% 1.29% 28 Michigan 1,120,000 1,120,000 +0.00% 1.28% 29 Washington 1,100,000 1,150,000 -4.35% 1.25% 30 Georgia 1,000,000 1,020,000 -1.96% 1.14% 31 Mississippi 930,000 910,000 +2.20% 1.06% 32 Arizona 920,000 900,000 +2.22% 1.05% 33 Indiana 870,000 810,000 +7.41% 0.99% 34 North Carolina 810,000 820,000 -1.22% 0.92% 35 Utah 800,000 770,000 +3.90% 0.91% 36 Louisiana 790,000 780,000 +1.28% 0.90% 37 Nevada 455,000 460,000 -1.09% 0.52% 38 West Virginia 380,000 410,000 -7.32% 0.43% 39 South Carolina 360,000 355,000 +1.41% 0.41% 40 Vermont 260,000 270,000 -3.70% 0.30% 41 Maryland 182,000 192,000 -5.21% 0.21% 42 Hawaii 130,000 132,000 -1.52% 0.15% 43 Maine 85,000 85,000 +0.00% 0.097% 44 Connecticut 47,000 48,000 -2.08% 0.054% 45 Massachusetts 39,000 39,000 +0.00% 0.044% 46 New Hampshire 32,000 33,000 -3.03% 0.036% 47 New Jersey 29,000 31,000 -6.45% 0.033% 48 Delaware 16,000 18,000 -11.11% 0.018% 49 Alaska 10,000 12,000 -16.67% 0.011% 50 Rhode Island 5,000 4,600 +8.70% 0.006%

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Crap ... the chart didn't work.

The link again: http://www.cattlerange.com/cattle-graphs/all-cattle-numbers.html

And no, disagree doesn't automatically = propaganda but a lot of "facts" that are disputable and opinion does.

Which "facts" are disputable and what facts are really only opinion?

Edited by Blondyy

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Florida is still only 12th in beef cattle..

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content/download/23963/486570/DACS-P-00044_Cattle_Industry.pdf

Though it has some other interesting cattle stats. You haven't ever claimed to have worked with cattle (that I saw), just be in a state that does. I lived in Florida for 9 years. I never saw a cow in my area but I lived there so I must know everything.

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Florida is still only 12th in beef cattle..

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content/download/23963/486570/DACS-P-00044_Cattle_Industry.pdf

Though it has some other interesting cattle stats. You haven't ever claimed to have worked with cattle (that I saw), just be in a state that does. I lived in Florida for 9 years. I never saw a cow in my area but I lived there so I must know everything.

I don't think anyone is proclaiming to know everything.

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I've never heard you mention working with cattle either but since you live in a state with the largest cattle ranch in the US, you *must* be an expert just by osmosis, right?

/end sarcasm font

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But you are claiming to know about cattle because the state you live in has cattle. That's like me saying I know about fishing just because I live in Oklahoma. I've been fishing a few times. But I surely don't know everything.

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Smilie I've seen some "double duty" horses. One I remember well was bucked out and stripped of his rigging, then, to prove how gentle and rideable he really was the contractor put his little boy (about 6 years old) up on him bareback and the kid rode him out of the arena with nothing but a halter. The contractor also used him for roping. Just another horse trained to 2 disciplines like many others :smilie:

Interetsing, although I don't consider bucking, a training discipline, nor proof of a horse's performance versatility!

I would never think of subjecting one of my horses to acting like a bronc, anyy more than I would let some idiot get on him with a bit designed for a finished horse, and start jerking on him, having un educated hands.

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i Guess my entire point is , 'why'? Why do you want to breed horses that buck and bucking bulls?

Is it some primitive part of us left behind?

Gone are the days when a rough stock rider bucked out those horses off the range, that were running free until about age 5

Clinics abound , as do articles, many by cowboys that make a living starting horses, and all advocate the 'training, versus breaking', a trend going back to people like Tom Dorrence.

The horse person in me cannot reconcile bucking horses used for entertainment , anymore that raising horses for the European meat market, but then maybe I;m wierd!

For the record, I'm not fond of circus animals either!

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Smilie: OK, agreed, not necessarily a training discipline. My point was just that he had two jobs, could distinguish between the two, and new how to act in either case. It was amazing to see that kid ride him around then out of the arena. :smilie:

Edited by rattusrat

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Actually, those days really aren't "gone". Ranches here run their stock on large acreages, bringing them in at weaning time, then again as yearlings to geld, vaccinate and do some minor gentling and halter breaking. Usually they are roped from the back of another horse and galloped alongside until the youngster quiets down and quits pulling, which generally takes just a few minutes. The horse is then given a quick lesson on giving to pressure and being handled. If it's being gelded, it's laid down and gelded and then they are turned out to grow again. They are brought in usually the fall of their 2nd year and get started. They don't discourage bucking but they don't encourage it either. They work them on the ground a little, get them used to being tied, being hobbled, being saddled and usually are backed in a week or two. By the time they are 3, they are doing rounds, checking fence or moving cows, sorting pairs, etc. They encourage spunk and spirit and try not to "break" them, but rather work with them to keep them "lively". If they buck, they buck. Some are just born gentle, some aren't. A lot of the ranches here go for the "hotter" lines that have more grit to them, and yes, some buck in them. Hancock lines, Music Mount, etc. come to mind.

Sometimes, a bucking horse just quits bucking. They go on to be a ranch horse. Sometimes a ranch horse won't quit bucking. They go on to be a bucking horse. Glen got his start because he was a rough stock rider and people would bring him horses that bucked. Some worked out, some didn't. He has a mare right now he's riding that is 7 and the people who had her foaled her out and just could never really get along with her and get her to settle in. She's pretty catty and pretty goosey at times, likes to swap ends when something rattles her (like wild range cows charging her!) but she's not offered to buck. She'd make a heck of a cutter and he's going to put her in the sale this summer as a prospect for that. She's not really his type of horse -- not tall enough, wrong gender and she's not a Paint. LOL But she's a nice looking buckskin mare and should bring some decent money with the training she'll have on her by sale time.

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I am in no way wanting to appear as an extremist, far as rodeo is concerned, as I know many performance disciplines also have their darker side

However, I can also not dis miss all the views of veterinarians, nor their experiences.

There is a reason inspectors are present at Tennessee Walker shows that feature the 'big lick', , and I think there also is a reason vets are present at rodeos. For me, rodeos will remain a grey area, and I won't be spending spectator fees to watch one, but do have friends that rope .

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I have no problems with vets being at the rodeos. In fact, stock contractors appreciate them as well. You know, it's not just to "catch them" in some nefarious thing. It's also to administer services when needed. It's rarely needed, and violations are rarer still but it's good to have them.

Things *have* gotten better because of watchdog groups but things have also gotten out of control in some cases because of such groups extremist views. Most of those groups would like nothing better than to have all animal ownership to go away, and all consumption of animals to go away as well.

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First, that's just a rope, not a (sheepskin covered) flank strap. Any idea where this was taken? Sanctioned rodeos would never allow something like this.

I believe was taken in Australia...

hhttp://www.animalsaustralia.org/images/page/200-bull_riding.jpgere is another picture resembles that same type of bull from Australia

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First, that's just a rope, not a (sheepskin covered) flank strap. Any idea where this was taken? Sanctioned rodeos would never allow something like this.

there are images shown from an Australian Rodeo that show the same tight straps as shown on the picture Blondy posted....... similar picture shown here

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/issues/rodeos.php#toc1

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I am in no way wanting to appear as an extremist, far as rodeo is concerned, as I know many performance disciplines also have their darker side

However, I can also not dis miss all the views of veterinarians, nor their experiences.

There is a reason inspectors are present at Tennessee Walker shows that feature the 'big lick', , and I think there also is a reason vets are present at rodeos. For me, rodeos will remain a grey area, and I won't be spending spectator fees to watch one, but do have friends that rope .

Vets are present at almost all larger horse shows I've attended too.

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I have never seen a vet at a horse show. Granted, I have never had the desire to go to any major horse shows either.

I have seen them at rodeos and horse tracks. There are a reason they are there- and it isn't just "because" either. Having a veterinarian on the payroll is a pretty penny, and unless there is a reason for them to be there, they wouldn't have them unless required by law.

Rodeos and horse racing are both dangerous sports which results in a loss of life. To dismiss what the vet has said, in her own experience, as well as the meat inspectors who end up cutting open and visually seeing for themselves the damage cause by rodeo folk, as "propaganda" is just silliness. These people know what they are talking about more so than the outside spectators who are only visually seeing the animal from the outside.

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Thanks for that Anne and this is in no way directed at you but at the Animals Australia site that you linked here. :)

Some quotes I took note of...

..involves releasing a bull from an enclosure called a bucking chute, and the rider holds on by one hand for as long as possible while the bull attempts to ‘buck’ them off.

A ride is up to 8 seconds not "as long as possible".

A flank strap is pulled tightly around the bull's sensitive organs, which makes him buck unnaturally when released from the chute.

People always assume that the flank strap is just cranked down on rodeo animals. It is pulled snug and is often even loose. It is not around their "sensitive organs" nor does it cause them to "buck unnaturally". If they were so tight they wouldn't come off with the single jerk it takes to release it as they move through the stripping chute.

On a side note: Anyone here ever seen what's called a "union bull" or horse? It's an animal that will stop dead in it's tracks at the sound of the 8 second buzzer, wait for the rider to dismount, then leisurely stroll or trot to the stripping chute. Would they not continue to buck if the strap was so irritating or painful? Just something to think about...

You can’t make an animal buck if you don’t do something to it.

That's just an outright lie. How many times have we seen our own horses bucking for the sheer joy of it? Cattle (including bulls) often buck when the herd is moving, especially at feeding/milking time.

I just wish people/organizations such as Animals Australia would get their facts straight instead of posting assumptions and sometimes just pure bull drivel.

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