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americanbroomtail

Hoofcinch? Anyone Heard Of This Or Used It? **update**

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I wanted to thank you all for your thoughts comments and prayers. I had to put Riley down this morning. The strain on his back legs became too great for him to bear and he was in too much pain. While his loss is an emotional burden for me, I'm glad that he is finally out of pain and at rest.

I hope that awareness of this product might help someone else save their horse. I would be curious to find out if it works.

Edited to add, just in case it was ambiguous... I HAD NOT had the chance to put the cinches on yet. This is not a case of the hoof cinches failing to help.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

My horse Riley foundered about five weeks ago. I think my vet is going to recommend putting him down (based on her tone of voice when she left the message on my answering machine.)

I found hoofcinch.com while researching online and sent the link to my farrier. His reaction wasn't positive. His opinion is that if he's never heard of it, it must not be any good.

My opinion is, if the choice is try something new, or just put my horse down, I'd like to try something new.

I'm curious if anyone has used this? Naturally the website only shows the good testimonials. I'd like to know if anyone has tried it and had it either not work, or make the problem worse.

Edited by americanbroomtail

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Interesting technology, and I would not mind trying it on Smilie. Any chance of getting a more open minded farrier?

I have never heard of it before, so thanks for bringing it to my attention

Good luck with your horse, and don't give up. Find someone who is willing to apply that hoof cinch-you have nothing to loose.

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My vet looked at the website and agreed that it might be worth a try. She also said if my farrier was unwilling to do it, she could give me the names of some others who might be more open minded. I will call him tomorrow (assuming he was just having a bad day today) and ask him again. I've already ordered the cinches, one way or another, they are going on my horses feet. We have nothing to lose at this point.

Thanks for the input so far, anyone else who has had any experience with this product?

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I am absolutely intrigued bby this technology. I have no personal use for it but conceptually it seems pretty straight forward.

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Ok, so they cut hose clamps in half, attached disks to screw through, and want you to compromise thebhoof wall already damaged and think it is ok...to me sounds wierd,nsame technology as bands on walking horse feet so far as i can see...exray on front page doesnt convince me of actual changes. Andvthe crack repair kit it an old well avoided set up.... now find a way to glue any of this in place im all in, but holes...no way here.

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Well, the screws go into the hoof wall, which already is pulled away, deviated from the coffin bone, and which can further by pulled away, just by physical forces, so the idea of preventing further separation, and reducing what is there, makes sense to me.

Right now most methods of re growing a tight white line, focus on eventually growing that wall down, by un loading it and keeping a strong bevel, often making ahorse sole load more than ever intended, and often rendering a horse very sole sensitive, which happened in my case The idea of addressing that problem further up, creating immediate more stability, has great appeal to me

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Ok, at that point i time, would hoof boots nt do the same thing if applied tightly, pkus the added bennifit of not putting holes in the hoof wall.

I see the easy boots having that same effect over time without holes, and with the added bennifit of being able to keep the hoof off the ground, and still "Cinchng" the hoof wall.

When I looked closely at the photo of the exrays, i didnt find change, just swelling, and the coffin bone lookinf the same angle, tipped down, if you look at the bottom of the picture, you can see the bottom of the coffin bone at the same angle, what looks like leveling oyt on the front face looks wierd, and the hoof wall looks distorted.

I dont know,doesnt look right to me.

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I will take another look, but the Easy boots absolutely do not do what is pro-ported that the hoof cinch does. While the easy boots, combined with pads,often allows a horse to be trimmed back to the white line, thus unloading the hoof wall, with the idea that a tight white line will grow down eventually, the boots themselves in no way support or move that stretched wall back

Nope, hoof boots do not cinch that wall.

If you go to the case studies, there is a vet on board, and there are radio graphic studies of before and after the application of hoof cinch, with degrees of rotation reduction

What is better, a few screw holes in wall that has to grow out anyway, being more of less useless, far as attachment, or using the system and IMMEDATELY reducing degrees of rotation and pain in the horse? If it works, as testimonials indicate, it;s a no brainer to me!

Edited by Smilie

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My first questions:

1. How many hooves foundered?

2. To what degree on each hoof?

2.1 If you know the degrees were they measured from the dorsal wall or the ground?

3. Did your horse sink clear thru the sole? Meaning did the coffin bone go right thru the sole into the real world? That would be the only reason I would consider PTS'ng my horse and even then, I would try to save him. Pete Ramey has some good articles on this.

My horse foundered on the front in Spring, 2012. Measuring from the dorsal wall, he rotated 5 degrees on RF and 8 - 9 degrees on the LF; that is a LOT of rotation on the LF.

To complicate matters the AFA certified out his hindend rehab farrier cut too much heel in one strike, resulting in torn ligaments on both legs. Torn, not strained. The vet did ultrasounds and was livid. Livid because he recommended this guy and livid because the guy talked to him, saw the x-rays, yet did what he d**n well pleased anyway.

I rehabbed this horse using EasyCare's Boa boots (which they don't make anymore but their Easy Trail are what have been recommended if I need new boots.

I put partial pads in the boots and the horse was outside 8 - 10 hours daily. I had to poultice and wrap his legs twice a day thanks to that farrier.

That was two years ago. It is a tremendous amount of work/time/frustration on your part. The money part was a lot because my issue was compounded by the torn ligaments.

This is my horse in Spring, 2012 when he first foundered and was also dealing with torn ligaments. It is not a pretty sight. This was immediately after the incident and a day or so before the vet came back out. I didn't know how to treat him as I'd never dealt with things like this. He has leg boots on which helped but very little; once the vet came, he showed me how to poultice and wrap the horse --twice a day:(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCXSZsS2300

This is February 2013 (the year after he foundered). I had kept him in the barnyard for 11 months. The vet told me this horse would recover without pain but would always have a limp. I had some tremendous help from a lady on another forum, in Southern California, who told me how to trim this horse in-between formal farrier visits. The farrier came every four weeks and still does.

Notice he is out of boots and going down the gravel drive like nobody's business. He is a Tennessee Walker so the head bobbing is exactly what he should be doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wSzSHx69LA

If you have the time and energy to invest and a place to keep your horse isolated (small side yard, round pen, etc) and the coffin bone hasn't sunk clear thru the sole, with a strict diet, a rasp in your hand and more hard work than you want or need, you most certainly can rehab your horse and you can do it without the clamps. I understand the concept, I would never use them but, that does not mean they might be the right thing for somebody else.

I hope this gives you some hope and helps. If you have questions, I am happy to share what I know based on what I went thru with this horse.

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Well, here is my experience

When Smilie first foundered, about 10 years ago, before I knew she was IR, I had her shod by a farrier that developed the sole support system, using dental impression material, a pad and then a shoe. This made her working sound, and she won many show awards, plus I rode her on trials. Still, every winter, pulling those shoes, it was harder and harder for her to adapt to being barefoot in the winter, esp if the ground was frozen and no snow to cover those frozen lumps

She also has two set backs, once when I attended my nieces's wedding in Ontario, and the place I boarded her at, fed her alfalfa hay, and during the winter that I had double knee replacements-again with hubby feeding her the wrong hay

There is also something known as winter laminitis(Dr Elleanor Kellon)

Anyway, two years ago, I decided not to show her and instead try to completely heal her using hoof boots and pads, keeping her barefoot. Again, hoof boots are not very user friendly in winter, and again I wound up spinning my wheels as to completely growing out that tight white line

I have addressed her diet, feed her a supplement to reduce Ir, etc. I also ride her, so pasture sound and riding sound on all ground are not one and the same

Just this last cycle , my barefoot specialist trimmed her heels way too low and took out too much bar, even against my advise, as I know my horse. Sure, the profile of her foot looked great, , but she was so sore that even in hoof boots and pads and on bute, she could hardly walk across her crushed gravel corral

My regular farrier came to shoe Charlie, and I had him look at Smilie, who was walking (gimmping ) completely on her soles. He duct taped on shoes, and then we put the hoof boots back on. She was immediately better, and within 24 hours, completely sound on all ground, no meds

LaMINITIS, IR, IS AN individual thing, as is the damage to the front of the hoof, far as circulation and the ability to generate sole thickness, and one template doe snot work for all horses,any more then one protocol for all human diabetics

I have studied Dr R Bowker, pete Ramey, Jamie Jackson, and regardless of what Pete says, not all horses are fixed by hoof boots pads, correct regular trim an diet,. It is always smart to look at new technology with an open mind

There were periods where Smilie was completely sound barefoot, on all ground, including gravel, but that is miles apart from working sound, carrying a rider, doing all kinds of manovers, riding on steep hills, esp going down hill, which puts a lot of pressure in front of the apex of the frog

This is my performance horse, with 7 ROMs on her, and I want her beyond pasture sound, strolling in the barnyard, and without the weight of a rider

Edited by Smilie

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^^^I can see where hoof boots might not work in your winters. I am in southern Middle Tennessee where mild winters prevail. The 2013-1014 winter was a record for continuous days at or below freezing --- that is suntan weather for you.

I also have experienced hiccups with Joker. The latest being this past April when I was flat on my back with two bulging discs and a pinched nerve. Poor Mr. Gaited still works, so the horses got turned out three hours early every day and I put Joker on Remission instead of his prescription herbs, hoping Remission would work on him since Mr. Gaited was putting his muzzle on.

Joker foundered, thankfully it was mild but, I was on a lot of Excedrin and hobbling to the barn on crutches to give Joker his prescription herbs. If anything good came out of that, it was proof positive the herbal compound Hot Hoof l is keeping that horse alive.

Joker has other issues, and while he is ridable, he isn't ridable for the way I used to ride. He's 19 my niece can ride him when she comes to visit, he is the horse that has the vet in his hip pocket, and he's here for the duration.

Regardless of the route one takes to rehab the horse, it is heart wrenching, grueling and costs money. It also takes a lot of will and determination to stick with the routine day/in/day/out. Doubly tough if the owner has small children and works outside the home. I was fully retired when Joker first foundered; I don't know how I would have managed had I still been working:(

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I don't know. Looks gimmicky to me. Founder always mainly comes down to diet and a proper trim and then protection as needed. The other stuff is fluff IMO.

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^^^I can see where hoof boots might not work in your winters. I am in southern Middle Tennessee where mild winters prevail. The 2013-1014 winter was a record for continuous days at or below freezing --- that is suntan weather for you.

I also have experienced hiccups with Joker. The latest being this past April when I was flat on my back with two bulging discs and a pinched nerve. Poor Mr. Gaited still works, so the horses got turned out three hours early every day and I put Joker on Remission instead of his prescription herbs, hoping Remission would work on him since Mr. Gaited was putting his muzzle on.

Joker foundered, thankfully it was mild but, I was on a lot of Excedrin and hobbling to the barn on crutches to give Joker his prescription herbs. If anything good came out of that, it was proof positive the herbal compound Hot Hoof l is keeping that horse alive.

Joker has other issues, and while he is ridable, he isn't ridable for the way I used to ride. He's 19 my niece can ride him when she comes to visit, he is the horse that has the vet in his hip pocket, and he's here for the duration.

Regardless of the route one takes to rehab the horse, it is heart wrenching, grueling and costs money. It also takes a lot of will and determination to stick with the routine day/in/day/out. Doubly tough if the owner has small children and works outside the home. I was fully retired when Joker first foundered; I don't know how I would have managed had I still been working:(

I totally agree with you on the commitment required, plus that horse is never 'cured', but vulnerable to repeat incidences of laminitis, in spite of intensive management. I have been through the entire route of supplements to help with IR, from HERIO, to Remissison (not available In Canada, and a major cost to ship to Canada), to now Quiessence , which I can buy in CaNada

I have also now added vit A and E and a probiotic

Sorry ,Southerngirl, but a proper diet, and trim and hoof protection sometimes do not cut it. I have gone that 100 extra miles! I had the corral Smilie is drylotted in, completely scrapped of all top soil, and had 3/4 of it replaced with crushed gravel, so she never stands in mud when it gets very wet. I also pick that corral every dam day of any poop, and it is a large double corral with a shelter. Even though we grow hay, which is an alfalfa mix, I don't feed her it, but buy hay esp for her that is low in NSC

Far as boots, I have tried many kinds, from epics to Renegades to Easycare bares and lately, easycare glue on shoes, with support material.

You have to think as to what part of that founder you are addressing, before completely dis missing the hoof cinch technology

Also, diet is not dismissed in either case, and the hoofcinch application in no way dismisses management, which includes diet, it only addresses the encouragement and stabilization of that coffin bone and white line further up that hoof, versus just trying to grow it out, by facilitating it from the bottom end

I think we can all agree that when the lamini fail, the coffin bone does not rotate per say, but rather the hoof wall is pulled away from that coffin bone, and the object is to have new hoof wall grow down at a tight and correct angle.

Boots and trim try to do this by keeping all torque off of the wall at ground level, by un,loading that wall and keeping a bevel. What the hoof cinch does, is address the problem further up, more where the coffin bone itself is more in line with that stretched lamini. By stabilizing that pulling away, reducing the actual stretching of that white line mechanically, the horse is set up immediately for relief , caused by that tearing lamini, and also immediately reduces the white line separation, thus rotation, at that level, versus trying to grow it out over time

It does not mean that you throw a proper diet or trim out the window, but rather add another tool in the treatment of this devastating condition

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Well said Smilie - you can make a point, so much more clear than I can :smilie:

Joker, the horse in the above video is severely IR. When he first foundered, the vet gave me the choice of Thyro-L or the prescription herbal compound called Hot Hoof l. HHl can only be purchased by a vet who has taken Dr. Xie's herbal course. He is a Chinese herbalist in Florida, where expensive horse that need a lot of attention live.

Nothing over-the-counter works for Joker. Had the HHl not worked, I would have had to put him on Thyro-L.

However, my other metabolic horse has maintained a consistently "high/normal" insulin level since he was diagnosed in 2007. He never wears a grazing muzzle, has never had a laminitic issue and is managed with a strict diet, Remission and Chasteberry. He is diagnosed as having Equine Metabolic Syndrome which seems to be endocrine problems and more closely resembles cushings.

I can easily manage the EMS horse with Southerngurl01's supposition that a good diet and trim will get the job done.

Joker, like Smilie, is a whole 'nuther ball game. Diet and good trims are the basis for healing but, both their cases, not the panacea. My EMS horse can tolerate timothy/alfalfa cubes, Joker can't even sniff that feed pan as it whizzes past him.

I switch vit/min supplements on the EMS horse during the winter (don't laugh at that word from a Tennessean-lollol). I put him on liquid 747 which is high in iron and is molasses based. He is 26+ and excels on that supplement in the cold months. Once the weather warms up, I take him off of the Liquid 747 and put him on something with no molasses and low or no iron. I would literally kill Joker in less than a month, if I fed the Liquid 747 to him.

Smilie, if you're interested, here's the link to Dr. Xie's website. Mainly to see if there is anyone in Canada who has taken his course, if you might be interested in the Hot Hoof l. It comes with a double end scoop. Joker gets the large end twice daily during the warm months. I wean him back to the small scoop twice a day, then once a day and, if we get cold enough, I can even take him off the HHl during January and February. It costs me anywhere from 80 cents/day to $1.60/day depending on the season we're in and how much green I see in the pasture.

https://www.tcvmherbal.com/

This guy is no quack. Joker has been on this stuff since he foundered in 2012. After my back hiccup this past April, when I couldn't get to the barn, Joker didn't get the herbs and he mildly foundered, I know without question it works on the "worst case scenario horses". I would probably kill the EMS horse with this stuff. It's like people with Type II diabetes --- some manage well with only a good diet, others need drugs.

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Thanks, Gaitin, and I have heard of Hot HOOf, through a person on another site that deals with both a Cushings horse and an IR horse. I have planned on looking into it

Then there is also the work of Dr Elleanor Kellon, who found that most IR horses have an Iron over load, and getting that under control, improves their IR

I am thus now rinsing all of my beetpulp, not because of Sugar, as the extraction is very efficient, but to get rid of excess iron

I have also read up on winter laminitis, and thus now keep Smilie blanketed when it get's cold. Due to decreased circulation in that damaged hoof wall, cold will further restrict blood flow, thus keeping the body warmer helps to mi-gate that problem

I guess we both know that a severe IR horse is a greater problem to manage, besides trim, diet, and that fact has driven both of us to seek additional help, far as management

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Too little carbs/calories can also cause insulin resistance. It always depends on what the horse needs. It's a balancing act.

Do you have data for that?

Certainly , you need to make sure that you don't deprive an IR horse of basic protein needs and the right amount and balance of minerals, and enough calories to perform daily activities and maintain weight, unless that horse needs to loose weight, but never heard of a direct association between not enough calories and increased IR

Iron over load will make a horse more IR It is the high insulin levels, in response to needing more and more insulin to transport the blood glucose into cells that have become insulin resistant, that actually causes the laminitis.

Horses infused with insulin, and normal blood glucose levels, developed laminitis

Insulin resistance is a condition in which the cells of the body become less sensitive to the effects of insulin, i.e. cellular receptors for insulin do not properly respond to insulin and the pancreas produces more insulin in order to keep blood glucose (sugar) levels controlled. This can happen if there are abnormalities of the binding of insulin to the receptor or of the receptor's response to insulin.

Many factors can cause or contribute to insulin resistance, including:

  • genetic predisposition
  • a diet that is high in sugar and starch (non-structural carbohydrates)
  • inadequate exercise and activity
  • dietary/mineral imbalances
  • being overweight or obese

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Too little carbs/calories can also cause insulin resistance. It always depends on what the horse needs. It's a balancing act.

I, too, would very much appreciate credible links to documents that back up that statement as, the following is a medically documented statement of fact :smilie:

Many factors can cause or contribute to insulin resistance, including:

  • genetic predisposition
  • a diet that is high in sugar and starch (non-structural carbohydrates)
  • inadequate exercise and activity
  • dietary/mineral imbalances
  • being overweight or obese

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LOl, If low carbs/calories caused IR, we would have a lot of IR rescue horses!

Yes, they often have poor feet, but that is lack of nutrition, hoof care and minerals

Don't think there were too many human type 2 diabetics in concentration camps!

Edited by Smilie

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Thank you all for your input. Here are some further facts for those folks who are interested in reading.

Riley is a mustang... super hard hooves and super easy keeper which means he is fat even on winter pasture. His obesity was a major contributing factor to his foundering. His diet will have to be carefully controlled if he survives this ordeal.

His rotation was 11 degrees lf and 13 degrees rf. My vet told me she was expecting his rf to abscess and push through the sole. It hasn't happened yet.

Someone above mentioned that the coffin bone in the after pics didn't appear to have moved, and that is true. Talking to the developer of the product, it works like this.... The coffin bone will remain at the new angle, that can't be changed. By forcing the hoof wall against the coffin bone, the new hoof wall will grow in at a straighter angle, more closely aligned to the new angle of the coffin bone. So, his hooves will be more upright than is natural, but he shouldn't be in pain any longer. As the new hoof wall grows out, the new laminae will be sound.

We will apply the hoof cinch when my farrier comes back to trim him in a few days. I'll let you all know how things turn out, although it will take a few months before anything is sure (unless, of course, I wind up having to put him down anyway.) I understand I'm grasping at straws here and it may not work, but I hove nothing to lose by trying.

Edited by americanbroomtail

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Will be very interested in hearing the results. I realize it is no miracle fix, just another tool in the arsenal of treating these horse

It just makes sense to me, to treat the stress on those lamini further up, then just at ground level, to help that correct hoof wall and coffin bone aleignment to grow down

Think of your own fingernail, pried away from that nail bed.. Sure, cutting it short, trying to prevent any further torque, and waiting for that nail to grow down correctly attached is part of the solution, but if you are able to stabilize that nail, prevent it from being further pulled away, and maybe even brought back closer to that nail bed, then healing can more easily begin

Southerngirl,, you might be eluding to the thrifty gene, developed by years of horses needing to adapt to a sparce feed environment, so that generations later, those horses have what is called a 'thirfty gene', and utilize calories very efficiently, able to survive on feed that other horses would starve on.

That is the genetic component to IR, with horses that evolved through generations of deprivation, are often known as ;'easy keepers', and don't do well fed the same calorie diet as horses not from this genetic background , and if fed a' normal 'diet, that is not a problem for most horses , will be prone to founder. Morgans, are an example that springs to mind, as are many pony breeds

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Americanbroomtails, it is a true miracle he didn't sink clear thru.

Please know you and your horse are in all our prayers.

Do your best with him --- his eyes will tell you that he is either mending slowly or that he "just can't do this anymore"

If you care to sit and type, sometimes, please update us. Many of us dealing with foundered horses will be curious of the pros and cons to this hoof cinch :smilie:

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I dunno, am determined to remain open minded, but for the most part, am with Southern Gurl on this one. A really good vet/farrier team, xrays on hand only, etc. In lesser hands, I can see trouble. I've seen trouble with casting too tight and its effects. All those screws automatically rub me the wrong way, as well as the word "force" used a lot on the website....is dictation, but to each his own. It also doesn't address the most important part of founder protection and that is under the bone. If that bone is low in the hoof, he's still walking on it with no protection. I also wonder, with an already compromised blood flow, if this is bad in that dept. For me, I don't care what that hoof looks like. I want maximum blood flow and soft tissue being allowed to heal. The cinch is still on the laminae and its growth. It was also mentioned how the hoof distorts below the band. I am reminded of tightening a belt around my neck and watching my eyes bulge out. I know I can get the same comfort immediately with a good trim and padding below the bone and staying on top of it and promoting blood flow (the only thing that will heal a hoof and allow it to grow), then by going further doing the same to develop a strong hoof with concavity that snaps that bone back up where it belongs. Is this cinch just going to get the wall tight to bone, or is concavity going to happen along the way? Horses do recover from founder if it hasn't been too traumatic, not too much damage done. Getting into the oat bin still is the worst case scenario for recovery. There are two different kinds of founder. One is capsule rotation, where the capsule is torqued away from the bone or there's no laminitic tearing the bone goes nose down or both ends sink lower. The recovery of blood flow and soft tissue can be another story and is where winter founder comes in. Shipping boots have been found to work well to promote warmth and blood flow in these cases.

My prayers are also with you and please do keep us informed. I hope my questions will help you communicate with your farrier. These would be my questions. Know that I respect your decision to try this and am glad that you have found a different route to take you away from euth. Please take lots of pics and stay with us. I am very interested to see how this goes. As time wore on, what I'd be really looking for is the groove beside the apex getting deeper and deeper as concavity improves. If not, then getting the hoof tight to bone is a good thing for a good hold, but its concavity that reverses the bone's descent in the hoof and puts it back up where it belongs. This is important to me. So many times, I've seen years old founder with still low bone, trim not promoting and horse still lame. Above all, I want to see concavity coming in. The bright light for me in all this is the alleviation of pain, which is a biggie, but must be managed carefully. I do want the horse to be able to walk comfortably and properly, but I don't want him getting stupid and over confident either. You have much homework with fighting thrush and creating lots of that comfortable movement that promotes bloodflow/development, so if this helps him in the pain dept., it could just help him get over the hump and doing the homework that he needs to do. Please do post pictures according to the sticky at the top. Right now, your starting point and later after some time has gone by, but before the farrier comes to renew, so we can see what the cinch has been doing. Post xrays too, if you have them. We are here and you are not alone. Best wishes!

In the meantime, I will post this question to my peers and see if I can get a definitive answer. They know what must be done and new things coming in like this are usually ignored, but if we are to be smart about things, these things must be scrutinized as they coming flying in from the sidelines.

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I agree that protection of the coffin bone is vital, and by using the hoof cinch, I don't think that it is implied that you forget about the bottom of that foot, or protecting that coffin bone

I also agree that more data is needed, and in the mean time, I will keep an open mind. According to the information, hoof circulation is improved, not lessened by using the hoof cinch.

That hoof wall where the screws are applied . has become non functional , and separated, needing to grow down from the top, in proper connection, thus releiving the stress further up the hoof wall, preventing further tearing on the lamini, makes just as much sense, if not more,then using a bevel to attempt the same thing at the bottom of that hoof wall.

I also agree there is distal descent, which can happen over time, but as far as founder itself, following acute laminitis, there is tearing of the lamini in all cases. In the case of what is commonly referred to as 'rotation, the lamini in the front of the hoof fail more, but when all the lamini fail, you have what is known as a sinker, and worst case scenario

Far as winter laminitis, I live in Alberta, where temps can get to minus 30 C and beyond-shipping boots aren't going to do much, except become icy snow packed lumps. Keeping the body core warm, allowing more blood to be diverted tot he extremities, is what is recommended

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I am very sorry, americanbroomtail. :( I greatly appreciate that you made the difficult decision to do what you thought best for your pony. Happy trails to you, Riley.

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