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nick

Dog Poisoning

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i know this post is about a dog, but i just thought i'd pass this along to the forum since so many of us are dog owners as well as horse.

three weeks ago i noticed that my dog (border collie) was behaving in an unusually subdued manner. by the time we got home that afternoon he was standing arced to one side and had trouble lying down. by that evening he was unable to urinate so off to the vet (sunday evening).

she asked me what he'd been up to, and i explained that he hadn't engaged in any unusual activity just the usual dog stuff like trail riding and being with me at the barn for 3-4 hours every day. she did an xray and his kidneys were not visible. she asked me if he had vomited recently and i said about two weeks ago, which to me is something dogs occasionally do. she said she suspected internal bleeding because she couldn't see the kidneys and some other organs on the xray and sent us to a clinic in munich with the latest in ultra sound equipment and much better equipped to deal with this kind of a case (this is simple country practice).

at the munich clinic after a systematic check of vital signs and blood values the attending vet said she strongly suspected poisoning and explained to me that she suspected RAT poison. typical symptoms are that the dog barfs after ingesting, but that these life threatening symptoms don't surface until 2 -3 weeks later.

long story short, he survived but i found out much to my surprise that the thing that kicks this (if you catch it in time) is vitamin K. i now keep a two week supply of tablets in my house and at the barn just in case. hope this never happens to any of you. it was awful.

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*whew!* I am soooo glad this cautionary tale had a happy ending. I was frightened I'd reach the end and learn you'd lost your dog. 0.o

I've known about Vitamin K to counteract anti-coagulants, I'm not sure where I learned that but it seems like something I've always known. Probably was learned from my parents when I was a child and they raised/showed AKC Rough Coated Collies. Reading your story it makes me realize that all of us probably have vital knowledge about something, something we take for granted as "known" but in the act of sharing (like you with your story) that knowledge is spread to educate others so it can do more good.

This is one of the things I like best about online forums; the wealth of information and its dissemination.

VERY glad your dog is okay.

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Glad it turned out okay.

Yes, 'rat poison 'or warfarin is a synthetic derivative of dicoumal , an anti coagulant that is known as an indirect anti-coagulant, unlike Heparin that has an immediate anti clotting effect, being an anti fibrinogen

Warfarin , on the other hand, works by inhibiting the production of the vitamin K dependent factors, as it is a vit K antagonist, and it will thus take time for those Vit K dependent factors to reach half life, and thus clotting ability diminished Therefore the delayed bleeding

When too much dicoumal is accidently given to a patient on dicourmal anti coagulant, standard treatment is to give vit K

Warfarin was first discovered in spoiled sweet clover that caused cattle to hemorrhage

Edited by Smilie

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thanks for your thoughts. in the meantime i feel sorry for rats--better to kill them instantly with traps than a slow and incomprehensible death.

i know they're pests, but they are also very smart and friendly. i studied experimental psychology in college. the first semester we taught them all kinds of things, and the second semester we were supposed to put them in a jar with a chloroform pad and euth them. and then dissect them.

i let mine go and got an "F". i realized then that i wasn't cut out for this kind of lab work so changed my major.

but seriously, it turns out any psycho can buy this stuff on the internet without registering, without licensing, with no qualifactions. on EBay or Amazon or tons of websites. and just put it out for any animal to ingest.

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We don't have rats in Alberta, but they were common in Ontario.I would think that barns where dogs and cats are at liberty, would not be using rat poison

However, we do have lots of gophers and dogs have been poisoned by accidentally eating gop[her poison

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-suspends-gopher-program-after-dog-eats-poison-1.2671192

strychnine is the common poison used, but it must be placed in the gopher tunnel-still dogs dig them up

http://www5.agr.gc.ca/eng/science-and-innovation/agricultural-practices/agroforestry/diseases-and-pests/pocket-gophers/?id=1198881854578

Never had to dissect a rat, but did a cat, which was already dead.

Yes, rats are supposed to be somewhat smart and used in maze testing.

Ever read the book "flowers for Algernon?

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Far as rats, I have a confession to make. I only killed two animals in my life. One was a rat, and the other a Jack rabbit that I accidentally hit driving at night through the desert.in Nevada.

In the case of the rat, I was still a teenager, living on the farm in Ontario. We had baby ducks that rats were killing and eating the heads off of them

Our work horses, used in the Tobacco fields were kept in at night during work season, in tie stalls, and that area was separated from the rest of the barn by cinder blocks.

One morning, coming in to clean stalls, pitch fork in hand (no shaving forks back then ), I encountered the 'enemy' that had been killing my baby ducks and used that pitch fork to make sure there was one less rat.

I never realized rats screamed, but once I started, had to finish the job, although that memory did bother me for a long time!

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We don't have rats in Alberta, but they were common in Ontario.I would think that barns where dogs and cats are at liberty, would not be using rat poison

However, we do have lots of gophers and dogs have been poisoned by accidentally eating gop[her poison

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-suspends-gopher-program-after-dog-eats-poison-1.2671192

strychnine is the common poison used, but it must be placed in the gopher tunnel-still dogs dig them up

http://www5.agr.gc.ca/eng/science-and-innovation/agricultural-practices/agroforestry/diseases-and-pests/pocket-gophers/?id=1198881854578

Never had to dissect a rat, but did a cat, which was already dead.

Yes, rats are supposed to be somewhat smart and used in maze testing.

Ever read the book "flowers for Algernon?

yes i did read that book--very sad. domesticated rats who have stimulating environments (like our lab where they were constantly learning to do new things and figure out puzzles) develop HUGE personalities. it felt too much like arbritarily snuffing out this funny, smart, social creature that i more or else "made", which told me i wasn't cut out for this kind of work.

thanks for those links. my vet was told by the german poison control center that this particular variety stays in the body for 120 days. no trail riding, no retrieving, no fun dog stuff until december and he has to keep on taking the vitamin K until his red blood cell count normalizes. this is something else small pet owners need to be aware, the longevity of the active ingredient.

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The pest control company we use for our house puts out rat bait...my husband is the one that deals with him and they assured him, apparently, that the bait was inaccessible for our dogs to get to and that it "wouldn't hurt them." I hate having to use it, but they live in the walls (this is an old house) and manage to get in the house. They've disabled our dishwasher three times by nibbling on the hoses and causing a huge mess in the kitchen. Heaven knows what else they're chewing on up in the walls, they have got to go! The cats get them every once in a while but I won't let them eat them, because the poison scares me...and lo and behold, our Mal pup got into bait last week and was sick. He's also on vitamin K but we caught it early and he just had a day of feeling terrible before we figured out, hey, he has unnaturally bright green stuff on his teeth! Husband called the company and told them to come remove their crap.

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i'm sorry to hear about that! did you consult your vet? i was shocked when i found out about the longevity of the active ingredient in the stuff our dog ate. he has to continue on vitamin K for at least the next two weeks which will make a total of five.

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I do hate using any poison for pest control. My sons used to trap gophers as kids.Yes, those little guys are cute (gophers ) , but they make a mess of a pasture,, and dangerous ground to lope a horse over

I can see where you can get attached to a lab rat, that you have worked with, but I fell not even a bit of empathy for the common wild rat

Rats have carried disease through the ages, esp the bubonic plague. In un developed countries, they often manage to chew on babies and they have been used in torture, thus quite happy to chew on human flesh

Rats also destroy 1/3 of the wORLD'S food supply, thus having them bleed to death after consuming rat poison does not incite any guilt or sympathy in me.

In the light of maybe appearing politically incorrect, I do feel the need to express my true feelings

Yes, maybe laB rats get a bad deal and they also can make pets, but their wild cousins evolk no sympathy from me, and those are the ones eating rat poison

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i'm sorry to hear about that! did you consult your vet? i was shocked when i found out about the longevity of the active ingredient in the stuff our dog ate. he has to continue on vitamin K for at least the next two weeks which will make a total of five.

It takes time for the vit K dependant clotting factors to get back to normal level

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i don't care for wild rats either and completely agree that pests need to be elimiinated for a lot of reasons. i do feel uncomfortable with the complete availability of rat poisons on the internet to any tom. **** or harry who wants to purchase them for other reasons. heck to purchase "Roundup" here you have to go register at City Hall in case trees around your property possibly marring your view start mysteriously dying.

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i agree that many things are way too easy to buy.

For instance, you can buy ricin over the internet-one of the most deadly poisons known

http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchemicals/a/ricinpoisoning.htm

If you ever happen to watch the TV series, Breaking Bad', you learn a lot about ricin poisoning, and you can look on the internet to find out how to make ricin from castor beans

Lets face it,, almost any 'smart' Tom...or Harry, could probably go on the internet and learn how to weaponize Plutonium

My son, for the heck of it, used his Smart phone to ask how to dispose of a dead body, and several means come up. We live in dangerous times!

I do not allow the use of any poison on our property

We used alive trap to catch a skunk and luckily our current property is gopher free, but even when we did have gophers, they were either shot with a 22 or water down their hole was used to drown them

I know of a friend that lost a horse due to her hubby leaving some anti freeze where the horse could lick it-deadly!

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I resort to mouse poison only as a last resort, after losing a beloved kitty friend to poisoning (from the neighbors, we didn't have poison out, but the neighbors did. and indeed, if a cat/dog/owl/whatever ingests a poisoned mouse/rat, they too are affected)

I had to put poison in my horse trailer this summer, as the mouse was NOT tripping the trap. I made sure he couldn't get OUT the trailer, put the poison in, and checked a week later and found two dead mice - which were promptly bagged and thrown in the dumpster. It scares me to use it, but I am glad it was available for this circumstance.

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The problem with most pest poisons is that they taste so good! and antifreeze.

Here's a helpful tip from working in small animal clinics:

If your dog or cat does ingest something like poison. Syringe Hydrogen Peroxide down their throat. It acts as an emetic and will make them vomit. Of course, still see your vet for further treatment.

If they happen to eat a hard (smaller) object, feed bread first, then dose with hydrogen peroxide. The bread often will clump around the object, so as it comes back out hopefully in the vomit, it has less chances of lacerating. I learned this when a client's dog ate a disposable razor blade head... when they called, the doc told them to feed bread and bring her right in. We administered an emetic and minutes later the razor head came up encased in bread. (dog was fine afterwards).

Interesting fact: Dogs on phenobarbital (for seizures) seem to have a tendency to eat foreign objects for some odd reason. (Last year we removed over 350 small landscaping rocks from a medium sized phenobarb dog. it was literally STUFFED! It took made a full recovery after surgery and ICU care)

Edited by TSFkristin

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jusr wanted to update that almost six weeks to the date the dog's red blood cell count has normalized. vet cautioned that even that's the case, and he returns to normal activities we should continue the vitamin K for another two weeks.

yay!!!

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