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purbek

Can Overlaid Bars Cause Sole To Bulge At Heel/quarters?

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I've been through your explanation thoroughly Missyclare and now understand much better what you're saying and will go to hoof tomorrow and see how to apply it.

Regarding bevel - i had understood it to play a role in preventing chips and flare - yet very little is explained when one shouldn't bevel so i have been applying the technique all around the hoof.

I will definitely focus more on creating a very flat, square to the ground heel landing surface on the hooves without bevel.

With her front hooves her heel walls are always a lot tougher to rasp than the rest of the hoof wall.

So you are advising to rasp the heels down quite a bit then? I would need to at this point to get a true balance happening - so i understand your drawing and recommendations. It would certainly bring her frog into play more, and i think it's ready as evident by the left heel being compromised - the frog developed much more than the high right heel, same with the heel bulbs too. (I actually see this on both front feet)

By really studying the pictures i can see how my right hand rasping the right heel is always weaker therefore it ends up higher, yet i don't notice such a difference with hoof in hand and using the straight edge of the rasp to check levels...it's really strange - it's something i'm finding really surprising to see in the pics and am glad i've studied the pics more so i really watch the balance more with hoof in hand.

To create that very flat heel as you draw i would also need to rasp down the bulging sole that sits inbetween the bars and heel/back quarter wall, and trim the bars down more too. Am i understanding correctly?

Thanks so much for your time with helping me on this :-)

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<p>You'll be even more surprised when you close your eyes and feel things instead.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>You know where the bar ramp is supposed to be and what its supposed to look like. Say like your right side bar, the ramp is on dead air where it merges from the sole. This is because the older/taller ramp has shoved sideways and has taken the sole with it. The old ramp is now way over there, high and imbedded in sole.  I find the bottom of the ramp where it ends. (the actual height is where the arrows are pointing to the inside line of the ramp.) If I'm dealing with dead air, then I imagine the ramp to be there and carry on, getting the back half of the ramp to comply with my imagined front half. (Not imagining either, really, cause the base of the bar ramp is always running parallel to the groove and directly on the other side of the groove. So I go from thin air to constructing the back half of the ramp and a good connection with the heel platforms. Now the old bar which sits high and is imbedded I simply see the hump for what it is and get it flat , leaving the rest there. It's growth, I want it. Just don't want it to me mean to the hoof in the process. I've got a new ramp coming up where it belongs and it won't take long. I will be shaping it and defining the ramp as I have growth to work with.</p>

<p>The white line on the hump of the old right bar is just on the highest part of it. The actual whole area that is involved is bigger and behind my line, showing in as darker. If you look at that area vs. surrounding sole, you can feel a punch on it. The top of that hump is what's being mean. Just sliver it down even with the surrounding, to take the insult away and leave the rest to become growth and protection until the horse gets it in order. In your case on the right bar, its just hump high. Just pulling the heel back to the balance line will take most of that hump down already. The old heel bevel is eliminated as well, making it flat. What's inbetween the bar and heal now is cleared and has relieved the seat of the corn, which really likes to complain. You have now moved the heels back to the distance of the width of that old bevel...a big help at getting his heels under his descending weight. Keep the old bar down flat and the sole will stopped being pushed to the side and start to recover.. What is behind this hump...to the wall is flat and is thin sole, so don't touch. Keep the wall height even with sole and all this will start recovering into concavity/thickening as well. Remember on one of your original pics where you drew a concave line coming down into sole then stopped at the bar on the left side? Well, keep going, gently removing the hump as you coax a shape for future concavity. Remove that hump by way of making it bowl shaped in the process. The new ramp, which is right where its supposed to be will start to grow and you ramp and shape that growth as you have the growth to work with.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Another place that likes to complain and bring on abscesses, is the area at the front of the bar ramp. Any highness here will produce a huge punch into the hoof as the ramp has ended and support is lost. Sensitive area here, only in slivers, every few days until resolved with the goal of having the material in front of the bottom of the ramp flow nicely into it and then ramp up. The old bar out to the side is not in this delicate area, so remove the hump down to sole level,</p>

<p> </p>

<p>And yes, you do understand correctly. If you bring the heel back and down, part or all of that hump will be eliminated in the process. If you look at the heel shot, see the short balanced heels, the wall and sole even all the way around....the ramps ramp down, all humps slivered down flat to marry with remaining sole......Nothing  should be standing up higher than the heel platform or wall to the side in the middle of the hoof. Just a healthy frog. Look at my after trim shot again and feel no obstructions going on in the middle of the hoof.</p>

<p>Once the sole is telling the truth, all you have to do is follow it and the balance will be correct every time.</p>

<p>If you don't feel comfortable taking that much heel, only take half of it and more in couple of weeks to arrive. That's ok. The goal is to balance both heels to each other and have them both engaged and facing the ground. The other half of this success is the bevel at the toe, which needs a better leading edge placed and for that I need a solar shot with toe to bring the breakover back, show you where the bone is, show you where the toe wedge is and where to set that leading edge of the bevel.  So keep the rasp away and give me a solar shot so I can finish this trim for you.</p>

Edited by missyclare

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Thanks Missyclare - i totally understand the principles of the heel trim on her you've suggested...and especially the bars - which have been confusing me the best way to tackle them.

Solar shots of the RF and the LF and solar LF are at the bottom of page 1- i posted them up before my reply above...they've slipped by you :-)

Having some guidance on where to start the bevel at the toes would be very useful as i've been more conservative than i should have been, looking back, and i know NOW if i had been more aggressive with the toes in the beginning then the hoof would have developed it's proper shape sooner.

On both fronts she has callous at the toe - which of course i've totally left alone - i've always left her sole alone - i did wonder if there was some kind of lamellar wedge there at the fronts - and maybe should be rockering that in front of the callous.

That's why i'm here as i've been looking at the toes these past few weeks and know i need to be more aggressive so wanted more experienced eyes to offer some advice before i took the plunge. When her bars were going weird and the sole bulging by them, then i really knew i needed some other eyes on these hooves!

Thanks so much :-)

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PS - all future hoof shots shall be black hoof on white background and white hoof on black background - black hooves on black matting background does not make it easy to see the shape well!

If the FL heel shot is too dark to work with Missyclare, i can take another one tomorrow that's clearer with more natural light.

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<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/92429952@N03/15933711185" title="08frontright5_2014-11-27-625 (Large) (Medium) by missyclare, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8620/15933711185_33b97b4632_s.jpg" width="75" height="75" alt="08frontright5_2014-11-27-625 (Large) (Medium)"></a>

Just to clarify "the worm" lol, Its bar that has been sent down the groove all lumpy. Get an extreme heel shot and compare the height of the worm to the height directly across the frog from it. If its higher, sliver down the top of the worm to erase the lumps. (this is a sensitive area, so really, only slivers) then put a small bevel on the frog side to give it breathing room.

The top of the bar ramp on the right, I outlined in heavier black. Its not flat to ground, but there it is. See if you can see it on the original picture.To bring it down, I would start at the end of the ramp and trim straight up to make it flat to ground, creating a ledge on the side of a cliff scenario, then keep slivering that ramp/ledge down until you arrive, keeping it flat to ground and running head on into the new heel.

See the line of the bar ramp where its supposed to be on the the right side.....the point at where it ends. Then look at the height of the material just in front of it. That is a punch down into the hoof when the pressure went off the support of the ramp and material bulged up behind that. An important lump to sliver down and coaxed to flow into the bottom of the ramp nicely.

Sitll can't do the toe, this is not a solar shot.

Pick the hoof up high, lean forward and get directly on top of the bottom of the hoof. Stay 1' away with the camera and only worry about getting from heel to toe in the pic. :smilie:

Hope this helps...

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I would do some hoof mapping. This allows you to determine where internal structures are. You have to identify where the true apex of the frog is, where the bars should end, and how far the heels should be brought back as possible, plus identifying breakover

I sure as heck can't do that without actually mapping the hoof

http://www.lamenessprevention.org/assets/docs/elpoprotocolsheets-print.pdf

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Thanks for the video links Smilie, they're slightly different to the ones i've seen - i agree, mapping is invaluable.

When i have done it on my mare i know from it her toe is way long, including frog - everything is shifted forward - since mapping i have brought back toe length upto the white line.

Some say do it up to the sole and then rocker the sole....i will admit to being a bit 'shy' to do that at first.

Since bringing back her toe is when her heel/back quarters exploded outwards and the WLD disease took hold, then the heel balance, mainly on her right - due to WL damage, really went out of whack - whether bringing toe back and the WLD occurring are linked or just coincidental i don't really know - but do wonder.

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<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/92429952@N03/15933711185" title="08frontright5_2014-11-27-625 (Large) (Medium) by missyclare, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8620/15933711185_33b97b4632_s.jpg" width="75" height="75" alt="08frontright5_2014-11-27-625 (Large) (Medium)"></a>

Just to clarify "the worm" lol, Its bar that has been sent down the groove all lumpy. Get an extreme heel shot and compare the height of the worm to the height directly across the frog from it. If its higher, sliver down the top of the worm to erase the lumps. (this is a sensitive area, so really, only slivers) then put a small bevel on the frog side to give it breathing room.

The top of the bar ramp on the right, I outlined in heavier black. Its not flat to ground, but there it is. See if you can see it on the original picture.To bring it down, I would start at the end of the ramp and trim straight up to make it flat to ground, creating a ledge on the side of a cliff scenario, then keep slivering that ramp/ledge down until you arrive, keeping it flat to ground and running head on into the new heel.

See the line of the bar ramp where its supposed to be on the the right side.....the point at where it ends. Then look at the height of the material just in front of it. That is a punch down into the hoof when the pressure went off the support of the ramp and material bulged up behind that. An important lump to sliver down and coaxed to flow into the bottom of the ramp nicely.

Sitll can't do the toe, this is not a solar shot.

Pick the hoof up high, lean forward and get directly on top of the bottom of the hoof. Stay 1' away with the camera and only worry about getting from heel to toe in the pic. :smilie:

Hope this helps...

Fabulous drawing lines Missyclare - many thanks! I fully understand the trim...especially the bars - which eluded me what they were doing, where they were going - if they were causing issues ...etc.

You have a keen eye on you don't you?! :-) - That 'worm' is an area which i have noticed on and off sometime has 'flakes' lifting up there. I trim them off and it remains smooth and then a couple of months later they reappear. I was not sure if it was sole shedding or bar lifting. Due to it being sensitive there i never have done any investigative shelling off of layers, other than to smooth anything that became ragged.

Will try to get a better solar today.

Huge thanks for the drawing! :-)

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When there is a toe wedge present, you don't have to take it off and make it gone in one fell swoop. A flared forward toe is one of the pathologies that takes the longest time to remediate, so it makes sense not to fix it overnight. Unless the horse has foundered, or is some kind of trouble, I feel there is no need for immediate/complete correction in one go. The rule "Obeying the Sole" can still apply successfully here. You simply place the leading edge of that bevel properly to promote, then maintain it. Another good reason to do it this way with the same approach as to the heel balance....gradually. As said before, every time the hoof leaves the ground, its on that bevel, pushing off, pushing back into the hoof with every step. This bevel is magic for completely reversing that pull on the toe and everything behind it. The material behind it gets its ducks in order and forms into thick-walled concavity that emanates out from a thumbprint-sized area directly over the true apex of the frog. That is the heart of the hoof and the very bottom of the bowl.

Plus, for example, you gotta know where that bone is and only xrays will tell. Xrays are part and parcel of a laminitic/foundered horse, so its known. In Missyclare's case, her coffin bone had slipped forward in the hoof capsule. If I bevelled anywhere behind the sole line in order to bite into wedge I would sore her, so I didn't. Another example is another horse that had a badly flared toe, but most of that distance was 3" of stretched white line. That one I was able to correct greatly in one trim with incredible/immediate results. So, it depends.

So since you don't have trouble, or xrays, I advise following the sole, promoting, maintaining the bevel and moving. It's as easy as grabbing the rasp on your way in the barn once a week and saying..."ok, kiddo, lets spend 5 minutes and check your bevels before I let you out." Obey the sole and you do no harm.

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Ok, the pic isn't the best, the lines aren't the best, but maybe the explanation will help.

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/92429952@N03/15361424504" title="Bevel by missyclare, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7531/15361424504_a147e1cdf7_s.jpg" width="75" height="75" alt="Bevel"></a>

The white line is the existing inside edge of the wall location. The blue line is the the existing edge of the sole.The green line is where the sole is receding to. The yellow dots show the old pull of breakover due to the inside wall being higher and pulling the breakover and all behind it off to the left of 12 o'clock. There is scant evidence that the frog was pointing off in that direction as well, but has straightened itself out now, but that's what will happen to the frog...point in the same direction as the pull.

The red line shows the location of the inner membrane of the white line. The outer membrane is lying right inside the blue line. When you have two pieces of velcro stuck together, you have the hooks and loops that hold and also the nylon backing that holds those hooks and loops. Those nylon backings are the inner and outer basement membranes. The inner one is where the growth is happening and lays right outside the sole line. The outer one should be 1/8th" away from the inner one, consistent all the way around the toe. When the outer one gets stretched, It can't re-attach itself so it becomes gone and useless...still out there, adding to the pull. The trick is to preserve that inner baseline membrane against the sole and bevel the uselessness on out from there. Hence the yellow line. It leaves the outer half of the existing wall intact for support at the sides and at the pillars, rounds in to cuddle up right outside of the inner basement membrane. Everything on the outside of that yellow line, which is now the leading edge of your bevel, is gone away and has become bevel. That old 11 o'clock pull on the toe will eliminated and now nice and round. That yellow line is the new promoted breakover with inner baseline intact for growth without soring the horse. The horse will lick and chew or yawn with relief and when you leave the trimming area, his feet will be faster, smoother, freer and in concert with his other feet, along with a heel first landing. Find the location of that inner basement membrane, do it no harm and bravely bevel all that is outside of it. You can even draw that yellow line on the hoof for guidance.

I'm just going to put a small note in here to let you guys know that Missyclare passed away.. She was 30. She was mine for 29 years. I'm not going to start a separate post, cause I'm a pretty private person and didn't want to make a big deal of it. It was colic, ofcourse. Got pretty exhausted walking her for 2 days, hence the posting late here. I will say right now that I appreciate your heartfelt thoughts ahead of time, and wish to express my gratitude, as I probably won't respond in kind. I'm not much good at this sort of thing and when I do open my mouth, its full of sadness, regret, and sounding like a 2 year old with an attitude. I guess I still need to settle into this better mentally. So, in the meantime, I'm just keeping my mouth shut, lol. Ga!......it hurts, though.

There was a poster on here years ago that posted a euth poem that I saved to my computer. Do you think I can find it now? I can't remember her name, but the poem was titled "This'd be Right" It was a beautiful poem and I find myself the need to read it again. If anyone finds it, or remembers her, I'd certainly appreciate it, thank you.

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/92429952@N03/15361858854" title="December 09 109 by missyclare, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8567/15361858854_3ea7836a91_s.jpg" width="75" height="75" alt="December 09 109"></a>

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Oh MC, i'm so sorry to hear about Missyclare, there are no words to really express in these times as we all feel heavy-hearted to learn of a loss of our soft-nosed friends..

I hope the memories you have of those 29 years with her fill you up with joy, and help ease the hurt.

From what you've said, you made an admirable effort to try to get through the colic, the decision to end the episode was right, it's the hardest but kindest decision.

I know this is from the perspective of a stranger, and i hope my words are not too presumptive, but i always find the only joy in the passing of a loved one, is to be able to be with them at the very end, for that togetherness, support, love, a true resemblance of partnership.

Big hugs to you xx

You give people so much help and advice (look at THAT post count!) i feel other's who know you well on here might not see your post in this thread about my mare's dodgy feet, and would like to offer support, yet i understand you don't want to chime any bells and announce it...i hope you have close support.

I looked on google for the poem, but i couldn't find it. I found something lovely a poster had put on another forum:

"The really difficult thing about horses - as with many of the beloved animals we are fortunate to share our lives with - is that their lifespans are typically so much shorter than ours.

A wise friend once noted, when I faced that difficult reality, that despite the difference in our time on earth, the love we share with the animals we cherish cannot be measured by the simple space of time spent together.

"It is big enough," she said, "to fill in the whole gap until we see them again."

May the love you shared with your horse fill that empty space in your soul, til you see them again at the Bridge."

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I am so grateful for your help MC at this difficult time for you...i can't believe you found the time to do those lines, and hope they offered perhaps an opportunity to focus on something else, distraction being sometimes a useful remedy.

I'll go through your explanation a few times to get it embedded in my brain, i understand the concept about toe-forward being a slow process, and have always used live sole as a guide 'when in doubt' - which admittedly in recent weeks with her feet, i have been many times!

The frog shifting due to abnormal stressors/pressures/pulling is something i've recently been reading about - i hadn't fully realised why that happens and haven't read many cases about a wonky frog so that's been good to have you confirm it too and the causes.

Well you've given me plenty of homework and great advice, i'm so grateful for the effort you've put in to guide the process of a trim for her feet.

The only advice i feel i can offer you is to be kind to yourself right now, there is a corner to turn and give yourself the freedom and anything you need, to do that.

If that, for you, means drawing lines, just holler, i have 6 other feet i'll happily donate! :-)

Healing thoughts are with you MC

xx

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Missy, here's the poem:

This It Be Right

Better a week too soon than a moment too late, they say.

Better while the eyes still sparkle than wait til they dull.

Better while the good days outnumber the bad.

Better when it's hard for us than hard for them.

It will never be easy for us.

As stewards of these great creatures,

We have the opportunity to give one final gift.

Peace.

We grant them peace in lieu of our own.

But granting peace, the end, when we wish for more time?

Eventually becomes a gift to ourselves.

Knowing that we gave a final gift to one we cherished.

Knowing it will leave an empty spot in our hearts.

Doing it anyway. Because we DO love. And "this it be right"?

That is what makes us human.

For the love of my horse, I know who I am.

And I know love.

This it be right.

Read more: http://forums.horsecity.com/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=4&showentry=397#ixzz3LRhNOKxr

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So sorry to hear about your horse, MC.

I also wrote a poem that might before some help, when I thought I had to put Einstein down. I know the reprieve is only temporary, as he has Cushings and has never returned to 100% soundness, due to the severe damage done during the time I trusted farriers completely, and before I knew anything about barefoot re habilitation

Still, at the moment he is happy , and enjoying retirement. He also will let me know when it is time, and I hope that I then have your courage to do the right thing

He is the horse that helped me through my year of breast cancer and therapy, when he was only three. He is now 21.

Anyway, here it is and I hope reading it you will get some comfort from the fact that many of us know exactly the pain you are feeling,

Poem.jpg

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