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nick

Swollen Back Legs In A 10 Year Old Lusitano Gelding

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in the runup to the new year, I'm burdening you all with the question; "why are my horse's hind legs swollen. he had a shoulder blockage 5 weeks ago, shortly before we were about to go turbo on extended trot, gerd heuschmann (biochemanics rode him for 10 minutes and It was fine, and two days later 2 fat hind legs that have not dissipated. selenium deficieny? I had a blood draw taken. the legs are cool, just fat and he is stiff as a board. your thoughts?

I get the blood results on Friday, walk him around a lot, and would just like to find a solution to make him feel better. thanks in advance!

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Could he just be stocked up? If it is stocking up, I think a pasture or corral where the horse can move around is the best option for allowing circulation to reduce the swelling naturally, though there may be products you can use to help reduce the swelling.

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I've got a TB cross gelding, he was not in the best health when I got him and his history is very unclear but he stocks up in his hind legs, sometimes up to and including his sheath. I've noticed he is most stocky first thing in the morning, since he has been in a stall all night. The swelling is eliminated by exercise and turn out. In the winter he tends to be glued to the round bale, so he does not get the movement I would like him to and he tends to have more swelling this time of year. We are not 100% sure why he swells like he does, he does have a history of lymes disease so that could be the culprit, as well he has a grade 3 (on a scale of six) heart murmur. The heart murmur was detected at a simple check up, it is definitely audible, but it typically takes a more severe heart murmur to cause circulatory issues. Also the lymes has been treated, it was also a fairly obvious diagnosis as he could not gain weight and appeared to be under the weather (lethargic, crap-tastic attitude, etc.). Personally, I stick to exercise and turnout to manage the stocking.

Best wishes, I do hope it is something minor.

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no. I got a second diagnosis today (after the first said negative) that he's positive for borreliosis (lyme tick disease).

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so, third test came back positive ?
If it is Lymes, then of course, you already know the antibiotic of choice.

Supportive joint supplements, anti inflammatory, are all good, and of course, probiotics

I am sorry that you have to deal with this.

here is a site you might find helpful, as it goes into some alternative support therapy also

http://harmanyequine.com/chronic-lyme-disease-in-the-horse/

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thank you for the link smiley. today is day 6 of the antibiotics and he is responding well. chipper attitude, even a little naughty and hinds are much less swollen. I might even get on tomorrow--poor fella is bored.

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:thud:

found out last week that lyme disease was created as a form of biological warfare. by guess who? the americans (us) post WW2.

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google dr. bergdorfer and lyme's.

edited to add, a german scientist tapped by the americans relocated Plum to Lyme Island.

Edited by nick

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There are conspiracy theories about Lyme disease and Plum Island, but it existed long before the Plum Island facility existed. Bergdorfer discovered the spirochete responsible. Lyme disease was found in the "iceman" mummy. Google it in National Geographic.

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Some claim that Lyme disease was introduced into the northeastern region of the U.S. by a man-made strain of Borrelia burgdorferi that escaped from a high containment biological warfare laboratory on Plum Island. However, there is ample evidence to indicate that both Ixodes ticks and B. burgdorferi were present in the U.S. well before the Plum Island facility was ever established. An examination of museum specimens of Ixodes ticks showed that the presence of Lyme disease spirochetes in suitable arthropod vectors preceded -- by at least a generation -- the year (1982) when Lyme disease was first recognized as a distinct clinical entity in the U.S. (1, 2). More recent studies revealed that Ixodes ticks and B. burgdorferi were present in the northeastern and Midwestern regions of the U.S. in pre-colonial times and many thousands of years before European settlements were established in the U.S. (3). Lyme disease c

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Nick, where do you get the conspiracy theory from?

Wilhelm 'Willy' Burgdorfer (June 27, 1925 – November 17, 2014) was an American scientist born and educated in Basel, Switzerland, considered an international leader in the field of medical entomology. He discovered the bacterial pathogen that causes Lyme disease, a spirochete named Borrelia burgdorferi in his honor.

First, evidence that Lyme disease has existed since the Ice Man is present, and secondarily, Lyme disease, caused by a spirochete and carried by a tick, would be very ineffective as any biological weapon, as it does not produce any toxins, like anthrax

What injection are you talking about ????

Background on Wilhelm Burgdorfer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willy_Burgdorfer

Edited by Smilie

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Are you talking of some of the Quakery treatments out there, that have nothing to do with Bergdorfer?

Dangerous Injections

Other quack treatments for Lyme disease include injections of hydrogen peroxide, and bismacine. In 2006, the FDA issued a warning about the use of "bismacine" for treating Lyme disease. The situation came to the FDA's attention after a patient died as a result of bismacine treatment. The errant doctor, John R. Toth, M.D., of Topeka, Kansas, surrendered his medical license in 2005 and is serving a 40-month prison sentence for manslaughter related to the death [18]. FDA inspectors eventually uncovered a network of shady practitioners who were making bogus diagnoses of Lyme disease and using illegal "dietary supplements" to treat their victims. The situation came to light in December 2008 when Toth; Robert W Bradford; C.R.B., Inc. (d/b/a American Biologics); and C.R.B.'s chief operating officer Brigitte G. Bird were charged with a total of 25 counts of conspiring to violate federal food and drug laws and defraud individuals seeking medical care. The indictment states that Bradford, C.R.B., and Bird marketed bogus Lyme disease products and a microscope falsely claimed to diagnose the disease and that Toth had used the system in his office. In 2009, Carole Bradford was added as a co-defendant. In a separate case, Carl E. Haese, owner/operator of The Haese Clinic of Integrative Medicine in Las Cruces, New Mexico, has been charged with fraud in connection with using Bradford's system [19].

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I did a quick Google-search and found accusation, innuendo, opinion and speculation. I found no concrete facts to back up your claim. I'm surprised and a little confused. This is the second time (in my recent memory) that you've posted something you believe to be factual ~ w/out backing it up w/ solid research and/or links as you usually do ~ that has been shown to be largely incorrect.

And I'll echo others, what injection? Do you mean a vaccine or injectable treatment of Lyme or are you implying he created an injectable form of Lyme specifically to infect?

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I read about the injection on one of the multiple websites I've read about this topic, since it is so complex to treat. it was not introduced to me as a "conspiracy theory", rather told by a person I know who has lyme's herself and has gone to great lengths to find effective treatment. the german translation for this is "the forever disease" meaning it is extremely difficult to eradicate through antibiotics or other medical mainstreet treatments.

i'm in contact with a doctor in hamburg who specializes in lyme's and has experienced a certain level of success through her own treatment methodology based on biological warfare remedies. i'll post intermittently on how things are going.

Heidi, nothing one reads is factual.

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Nothing we read can be factual? Does the same hold true for truth? I was referencing the difference between someone creating Lyme for WW2 and the presence of Lyme pre-dating WW2. No one could "create" something that had already been present. I'm glad you appear to have found someone well versed in this medical issue and whom can give valuable treatment advice. I do hope your horse recovers quickly.

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Ahh, no doubt one of your 'naturalpaths came up with this theory.

You really need to read Ben Goldacre and "Bad Science'

When you look for scientific info, you don't check out blogs, nor conspiracy theories, but the results from actual research facilities, backed by solid double blind clinical trials

Lyme disease is hard to treat, because it is caused by a spirochete, that will hide out in organs and joints, places that are hard for antibiotics to penetrate, and thus if initial antibiotic treatment does not eliminate all of those spirochetes in the blood stream, they hide out and re -emerge, multiply and cause clinical symptoms again

It has nothing to do with biological warfare, but rather with the nature of the organism .

http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_battling_bad_science?language=en

Another good site

http://www.quackwatch.com/

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if you want to call a licensed pathologist a "naturalpath" who has a lively practice in hamburg with a pretty high success rate with lyme's in humans a quack go for it. my horse is the first "test case" in animals for her for figuring out effective treatment (bacteria specific). and it's not homeopathic--it's definitely chemical, just lacking the side effects.

look, my goal is for the horse is to feel better so I figure i'll leave no stone unturned.

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if you want to call a licensed pathologist a "naturalpath" who has a lively practice in hamburg with a pretty high success rate with lyme's in humans a quack go for it. my horse is the first "test case" in animals for her for figuring out effective treatment (bacteria specific). and it's not homeopathic--it's definitely chemical, just lacking the side effects.

look, my goal is for the horse is to feel better so I figure i'll leave no stone unturned.

Nothing wrong with doing everything possible for your horse, and there certainly are alternative medicines that work, and I myself have used some, in conjunction with standard therapy.

I believe you are doing the same thing, as you are using IV antibiotics, and using some holistic medicine along with it, to help support immune system, etc- I do the same thing

I find in hard to believe though, that a licensed pathologist would suggest Lyme disease as being the result of chemical warfare experimentation, esp since science proves otherwise, thus my comment , concerning your source in that whole Lyme Disease conspiracy idea

I do hope your horse does well, and I don't blame you in the least in doing everything possible, just can't buy that biological weapon origin of Lyme's disease

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