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TrailPixie1

Horse Behavior Question

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I have a green 8 yr old gelding. Needs work under saddle (kicks out even at a walk). I'm going to have a trainer come out in the spring. I've worked with horses before, but most were more 'willing' than my gelding.

I was doing ground work with him today in the pasture. His ears were pinned most of the time, but he did everything I asked him to do. One of the other horses came up & pawed the snow near us. I 'shushed' him away & kept working. My horse started pawing the snow. I stopped him from doing it & went back to our lesson. Again, he listened nicely, but ears still pinned the whole time. When we were done, I unhaltered him. He immediately chased the other horses away, rolled on the ground, then proceded to get up & beat the snot out of the other 3 horses. He & the other gelding in the field would up rearing & 'duking it out'. Then he started galloping around full tilt boogie, launching himself into the air & kicking out in all directions before chasing everyone away again and settling down.

He's the top horse in the herd & pretty aggressive. He won't give the others a warning look or a swish of the tail. It's an all out charge & bite. I don't know if he was trying to reassert his dominance after I 'controlled' him? or what???

Any ideas?

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It's kinda dicey working him with other horses at liberty in the same area. I'd try to work him away from their pasture. Other than that, work, work and more work. And be careful.

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I have a gelding that you described to a "T". The only one who is his equal is my mare.

He is a tester, he'll be excellent for 2,3,7 days, then the next, BAM we have to reassert whose boss again. Its just our " routine"... To me, its worth it. When we he is behaving, he makes my heart melt. We have a bond that is untouchable with any of my other horses. I had surgery recently, the first day I went back out to the pasture, he met me at the gate, let me lean on him and kept my half draft who is a clumbo and my mini whose a pusher, away from me. I slipped and I yanked his mane pretty hard, he just took it...

So, Jubal is right... Work work and more work. It'll be worth it...

Oh and Czar, does also have his ears back while being worked.. I don't care, as long as he is listening... He is just telling me he doesn't like it... But I remember lots of times where I was told to do something and "had my ears back" but did it anyway because I was told to.

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I personally wouldn't put up with pinned ears, because to me that's a sign of crappy work ethic and lack of respect or plain out boredom. internet advice is always dicey, and we don't know what your body language, timing and tools are like, but you might try annoying him until he stops that nonsense and then you leave him alone. these kinds of horses are very confident (this is only what i'm reading into it) and have a tendency to have a "what's in it for me" or "you are not the boss of me" kind of attitude. I don't like working with treats unless i'm teaching stuff like lying down, bowing, circus stuff. the rest of it, ground manners etc is non-negotiable. he just needs some convincing that you mean it.

take him away from the group would be my first suggestion as well for your sessions. trying to get him to focus while the others are a distraction for him until the hierarchy between you is better established. you're trying to be the boss, and it's sort of counterproductive to expect him to acquiesce to you while all the others are doing whatever they want to.

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I agree both on more work, away from other horses and not accepting pinned ears

Pinned ears are the first sign of aggression, poor work ethics and lack of respect.

Sometimes the horse won't escalate that pinned ear behavior beyond that threat, towards a person, but at the same time, he shows that the horse has a rather 'make me attittude, versus a 'yes sir', eager to please

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Just to be clear, for me, ears PINNED and BACK are 2 different things. Pinned to me is aggression and is not tolerated. But back, as in listening behind, Yoda ears, or anything besides facing forward, including, "I don't like this but I'll do it"... I could careless about. Even my trainer told me not to worry about it.

He may pin his ears for a stride when I first ask for a canter departure some days, I push him through it, rinse and repeat until I can see light between his ears and his neck. Canter departures were painful for him a year ago. I feel he's still figuring out that's his hocks are not as sore.

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I agree with Jubal and others. One of our mares always pins her ears when we are walking her in from the field where the herd is, once we are out of the field, her ears go up. It's her way of sending a message to the other herd members, I think. I wonder if you work him away from the others if his ears will still be pinned?

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well, of course, any pain issue is going to affect attitude, but I did not get the impression as that being a problem with the Op's horse.

Thus< I would not describe your horse as being a carbon copy of the Op's horse, as you stated, BB

Yes, ears at neutral, or slightly back., are signs that the horse is listening to you, esp if you are on their back.

However, ears pinned, while being lunged is another whole scenario, as is kicking out while being led. Until proven otherwise, this horse is showing issues in respect, that need to be dealt with, now, before they get worse

Also, many horses that suppress escalating any disrespect towards humans, beyond ear pinning, when given the chance, will instead assert and take out that suppressed aggression on other horses, below them in the pecking order, given the chance-hense my advise, based on info given

Edited by Smilie

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this is just what has worked for me. when I am on the ground, I never want horse's ears pinned, ever when i'm attached to him. to dangerous. I do ground work from in front, on the side and in back and those ears better follow me everywhere. when I ride I want them in a reverse "L" cursive position, which tells me he is listening to me. those ears change and you know he's lost his focus--very practical tool.

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Thank you smilie... I did go back and reread the OP and I agree with you that the OPs horse is more aggressive than mine. And should be stopped in his tracks.

I apologize, I just have been trying to multitask and missed the whole OP.. =\

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Thanks everyone!

I usually work him in the round pen, but snow & cows have it blocked right now. I figured I'd try to work him in the pasture for a few minutes while the water trough was filling. I also figured the round bale at the other side of the pasture (a good distance away) would keep the others away from us.

I haven't had this guy too long. His last owner put him through 2 months professional training when he was 6 yrs. old, then he sat in the field for 2 years..then I got him. He's pretty much been spoiled his whole life.

His ears are pinned (not just back, or listening) whenever I ask him to do anything. Be it ground work, saddle work, moving over so I can scoop the poop under him in the shed, lifting his feet...he's a huge grump. He rarely comes up to me in the field. He won't run away, he's easy enough to catch, but he doesn't seem too interested in human affection or contact. The others will all come up one at a time to say "hi", and he'll chase them off if I pet them.

While doing ground work, if I ask for something (yield a shoulder, yield hindquarters, or whatever) and he doesn't get it, I'll tell him "No. Let's try that again". I have a good feel for 'lightness', I'm not rough, and I'm pretty patient. Every time I correct him though, he swings his head at me...he's never tried to bite me, it's more of a "get out of my space", head butt type threat. I've learned when it's coming & now have an elbow sticking out for him to swing his big jug head into. Which, of course, makes the ears pin harder & then I get the nasty look. He understands back up very well & won't swing his head at me when I ask for that.

I brought a lunge whip into the round pen when I first started working with him & he got so worked up at the sight of it, I thought he was going to run through the panel. I treated him like an abused horse after that, being gentle with him, trying to gain his trust. I wonder if that sent the message that I was lower in the herd?

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first and foremost you have to think about your safety. If you ask him to yield, and he doesn't you need to up the pressure. pressure motivates, but it's the release that teaches. watch your herd-there's a series of warnings that happens; first a dirty look, then maybe a head shake, then a feigned kick and then a kick or bite, and it all happens pretty quickly. that's what they understand. you'll also notice that the dominant horses have an "attitude", which is don't mess with me and do what I tell you to do. this isn't about being "mean" or even dominant, horses look for leaders for safety and comfort (they don't to want wind up as someone's lunch), and if you don't take that role then they will.

sounds like what you're lacking is respect, which is difficult to earn but easy to lose. he doesn't sound too bad--just make up your mind that he knocks it off with the crappy attitude and he will.

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You are getting a lot of good advice here. The gelding in my avatar and first picture in my signature is my heart horse and best friend. About every 4 months or so he will test me with the ear pinning thing when I work him in the round pen. He likes to make sure I'm still boss. I make him pay dearly for even thinking I'm not boss. First I pop him good on the butt with the lunge whip and then those ears come right back up. Then I make him move those feet with lots of direction changes and lots of backing up. After about 20 minutes of good hard work he's is putty in my hands.

If your guy is nervous with the lunge whip around him sounds like you need to take the time to get him desensitized to it. It takes some time but well worth it.....I've got a mare that was terrified just seeing any kind of whip from previous owners. Took me a few days but now she could care less what I do with a whip around her but she knows I will use it on her hinny if I need to.

Edited by Cindyp

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I guess you could say he is herd bound in a different sort of way. Not happy about losing his lead place in the herd and you are the source of it. If you let him off the lunge line, he'd surely pace the fence on the herd side. To me, the line is drawing thin on whether he re-establishes himself when returned to the herd (shown) and losing patience and blaming you for keeping him away. At the very least, he is not listening to you. He is upset, but he is also angry (he's a leader) and that puts you in danger as well. Though I'm not a particular follower of any method of training, my first thought was that he needs to join up, lol! If he needs to move, then let him move and keep him moving. When the energy starts to wane, then he starts thinking,...so fill his thoughts of other things and keep him busy listening to you. Leading him out to the field, down the aisle, grooming him, cleaning his feet, lunging him, he must have respect first, then build the kindness, the trust, the patience needed from him, to keep you safe in all things. He is what he is, but not around me, thankyou. Then go out tomorrow and do the same thing again. :smilie:

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I don't want to hijack this and, apologies to the op, but, this sounds like my gelding.

Sam is a 15 year old gelding, I've had him for 3 years.

In all that time, he has pinned his ears, for seemingly no reason, he pins them in various situations, almost like it's what he does out of excitement.

He makes no aggressive moves towards humans, he isn't mean, he'll just stand, with ears pinned, he'll walk to his food, ears pinned, I walk towards him to halter or groom, ears are pinned. Nothing else about His behavior is the least bit aggressive, towards me or my mare.

It's like he does it from habit. I'll just continue doing what I went out to do, I tell him to, knock it off, I tell him he's not mean and doesn't scare me one bit, then I'll rub his face and ears.

Every time anyone goes our there, the ears go back, but, the rest of the horse, says, something completely different.

I just think it's something he does, without giving it any thought and, without meaning. If that's possible.

Again, sorry for the hijack.

Edited by equicrzy

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are you absolutely sure there is no underlying issue? Be it pain or otherwise. Has he had physio/chiro/similar check up, any signs of ulcers, KS or any other discomfort to cause this behaviour.

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Is the question to me, or the op?

If to me. I never thought about it in terms of a medical issue, because everything else seems perfectly fine.

He's fine in all other aspects, eats and drinks, he's frisky, running bucking and kicking when I turn him out.

He's done the ear thing the 3 years I've had him, it doesn't seem to be directed at anyone or, anything in particular, but just something he does.

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I don't think that the ear pinning means nothing, as horses express moods with their ears, as well as focus of attention.

I think he is just not escalating his 'make me attitude, or my food, or leave me alone', beyond ear pinning

If you watch a dominant horse, whose position is well established, very often he will just pin his ears and give another horse 'that look' to make his point

In it's most benign form, it expresses either pain or poor attitude, with the two often connected

here is a link on reading horse;s ears

http://www.thinklikeahorse.org/horse%20ears.pdf

More info on reading horse body language

http://equusmagazine.com/article/how-to-read-your-horses-body-language-8577

Pinned or Laid Back Ears--Pinning of the ears normally denotes a form of aggressiveness, or perhaps anger. Horses use pinned ears as part of their repertoire of threatening gestures. When one horse approaches another with ears laid back, the message often appears to be, "Move out of the way, or suffer the consequences." When you are working with a horse and he pins his ears, he's either signaling his unhappiness with you or something you are doing, or demonstrating aggressive behavior. Pinned ears can mean that you have pulled the cinch or girth too tightly or done something else that caused physical discomfort.

Pinned ears also can be a classic warning when you are involved in a group trail ride. When another horse approaches closely from the rear, pinned ears often will be followed with a kick at the offender.

Correct interpretation of this type of body language is critical. If you don't correctly interpret the horse's body language, you might react incorrectly. If the horse is pinning his ears because you have caused him physical discomfort, disciplining him in any form will be counterproductive. On the other hand, if the horse is using pinned ears as a signal that he's challenging you, that is a totally different matter. If you don't establish yourself, with firmness, as being the dominant one in this pecking order, you might be telling the horse that you are subservient, and therein will lie all kinds of problems in the future.

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I know horses pin the ears for reasons you stated.

Sam doesn't do anything else, just stands with ears back, there is no other demonstrative attitude or behavior. There's no aggressive moves. He actually ambles, very calm almost lazily, as he's walking to the fence, where I am, with his ears back.

He doesn't lash out, try to bite, he doesn't turn his butt to me, he doesn't do those things to Abby, either.

I don't really know quite how to explain it. There is nothing at all, about the way he looks or acts, that would suggest danger, aggression, meanness, he listens to me when I tell him to, get back, actually taking a few running steps away.

We first noticed thus 3 years ago. Sam was very respectful, he was well trained, we just noticed, when he'd be walking toward us, whether is was feeding time, or not, even just coming over to see us, his ears were back.

A big deal was never made of it, because, we could pet, pat, groom, clean hooves, whatever we needed to do, without even an ounce if problem.

We just chalked it up to, something Sam does.

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Well, maybe that is all that it is with Sam, and if you are fine with it, I'm not going to argue

I, on the other hand, don't let a horse walk up to his food with pinned ears. Pinned ears certainly will knock you down in any placings, far as attitude. Many horses just pin their ears when a rider puts his leg on him, asking for a lead change or a simple transition. A horse that pins his ears will get knocked down, over a horse that performs equally well, without looking resentful by either swishing at tail or pinning ears. If those things don't concern you, far as expectations and Sam does not move to the next level, then , I guess ignore it.

For me, it will continue to represent a horse that is expressing some level of dominance, resentfulness or even pain.

My lead mare never needs to go beyond pinning her ears, walking up to the waterer to drink first, or up to hay to eat first. The rest of the herd get that subtle signal-she is way past needing to 'shout' with her body language

How is Sam when you ride him? Does he have a' yes mam, attitude', pleasant expression, or does he first pin his ears when asked to perform something he would rather not, while swishing his tail?

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Sam's good under saddle, his attitude is, let's go!

I admit, I don't ride him very often, but, the last time I did, he did everything I asked, without attitude or, complaint.

The ear pinning when going to his food, isn't his way of asserting himself, his dominance, there's nothing, not even my mare, in the way, he has a clear path to the food and, his ears are back.

Abby, anyway, is the boss, I have never seen her lay her ears back, she doesn't have to, all she has to do, is, take a step towards him and, he backs away, if she walks towards his food, he let's her have it and, goes and eats hers.

The reason I'm okay with it, is, Sam doesn't appear to be doing it out of anger or aggression, if I think he's too close to me, I make him move away, which he does, with no argument. He's actually, a big love bug, he loves attention and, people, which is why I have to chase him away, from time to time.

But, I do think, I'll take him for a check up, I trust the opinions and advice I get from here, so, if Sam is fine, great, if there's something I need to fix, I can get him taken care of.

Edited by equicrzy

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are you absolutely sure there is no underlying issue? Be it pain or otherwise. Has he had physio/chiro/similar check up, any signs of ulcers, KS or any other discomfort to cause this behaviour.

I've considered this. There are fecal blood tests that can be purchased to check for ulcers. I've also considered having him checked for Lyme disease....but I think we had a breakthrough with the attitude...if it continues, I will have him tested.

I had a "talk" with him about 2 weeks ago. He was being his usual grumpy self. I was cleaning the run-in shed and he kept chasing the other 3 horses away. Nasty, charging & biting (I've never seen him kick though). I chased him away from the shed & kept shooing him away every time he came close to the herd. He stood in the field alone, watching us. I swear he was pouting.

When I was done with my chores, I worked him on the ground. He challenged me at first (pinned ears, swinging his head at me, running through me). Enough was enough.Those feet moved wherever I told them to go in a hurry! Shortly after that, he was like putty. I brought my energy down, and was able to move him with my eyes. A look at his butt, it moved. A look at his shoulder, it moved. He's even VERY willingly giving me his feet now. (That's been an issue since day 1.) His head bobbing & swinging has calmed down since he's learned the 'head down' cue. He's still crabby with the other horses, but is showing me a lot more respect. He's even greeting me at the fence when I get there.

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That's great! Guess he finally got it! Once he realized, you were in charge, he had a change of attitude.

He must have been testing you, to see how far he could go, good for you for not giving in and,showing him who's boss!

I wouldn't mind his being bossy still, with the other horses, as long as his attitude towards you has changed.

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He needs a polite reminder who's boss every few days. He's also been better with the other horses. He still won't tolerate them in his space, unless he initiates the contact, but he's giving a warning most times now before the charge.

We had a couple snowmobiles pass by the field while I was leading him to the barn. The others took off across the pasture. He tried to follow, and took me skiing a good distance before I could dig in my heels in the knee high snow & get him to face me. He calmed down almost instantly, walked to me & put his head down for his "atta boy" forehead rub. The others were still running around, tails high & snorting. He ignored them. HUGE progress!

I think I forgot what it's like to have a green horse. My last horse & I had such a bond, it was like he knew what I was thinking & would do it before I asked. It took us a while to get there though. I have to remember when I first got him (my previous horse) and he evaded me in the pasture for hours. The numerous times he reared while doing ground work. The fact that it took me hours and hours and hours of work to get him to load on a trailer. Trimming up his feet, obstacles, bridges. Water was the enemy....then one day, we were swimming together. I guess I just have to remember those days & know what the outcome was after a tough beginning. Hopefully, the new guy (though more alpha than my mustang) will some day give me the same joy.

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TrailPixie it's good to hear that you have taken control of the relationship with your new horse.

It's easy to forget that new horses and bossy horses require their owner to prove that they are in charge of their horse. Not the other way around.

Horses "talk" with their ears, eyes, body and actions.

Pinned back ears are always bad.

The horse is telling us either...."You can force me to do this. But your going to be miserable with my stiff body, rough gait and cranky response to everything you ask!" or the one that can get us hurt or killed..."Just you wait! One of these days I'm going to get you and get you bad!!"

Not using a whip or riding crop, because our horse showed a "reaction" to it.

Is actually the wrong way to handle the problem.

Even if the horse was severely abused by a whip or crop.

Our job as owner & trainer is to De-Sensitize the horse to the point that they feel comfortable being around the very things that were used to harm them.

I bought a horse that was abused. If she saw a crop or whip of any style or heard a noise that sounded like a whip. She would either freeze and shake like a leaf or race away in a blind panic so bad that she bounced off of trees or ran into fences.

The world is filled with whips, crops and things that make popping or cracking noises.

I had three options:

1) Slowly teach her to ignore the sight & sounds of these frightening objects

2) Never take her out of her pasture and keep cotton balls stuffed into her ears

3) Have the vet put her down

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Just wanted everyone to know, I have decided to, after reading you replies, not to accept Sam's pinned ears.

Now, mind you, he never went beyond that, never took the next step.

But, I believe it when, more experienced people point certain things out.

This evening, I went out to feed, there's a riding crop in the feed room, so I picked it up.

As I was putting Sam's hay in his feeder, he pinned his ears. Well, without missing a beat, I smacked him as hard as I could on the shoulder with that crop. I then finished what I was doing, like nothing happened.

Fact is, I never really thought much of those pinned ears because, he never followed through, never became more aggressive.

Anyway, I do know, I couldn't continue to let him do it, I need to get a handle on it.

Thanks! And, sorry for the hijack.

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i'm glad to hear that you took action equi. as smiley said, "nothing means nothing" and everthing means something. you said he never took the next step, and my response is "not yet". as my german husband likes to say "better safe than sorrow". (I find that sooo funny).

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One important thing to remember is that every time you pop your horse with a crop or whip you must rub the horse with the whip/crop until the horse stops moving and shows another sign of relaxing (leg cocked, head lowers, stays in place for 15 seconds, licks it's lips, blinks it's eyes, deep exhale). Then you move the crop/whip away from the horse and let it think about it for a couple of minutes.

The goal is to have the horse respect you, not to be afraid of you when you have something in your hand.

For every negative action you need a positive action to follow.

Here is a video that shows Clinton Anderson DE-sensitizing a horse to the feel, sight and sound of a whip. Remember to stay safe and stay to one side of the horse so that it can't bite or strike or slam into you with it's head or shoulder.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9iBggFVFkwAIIgsnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByZ2N0cmxpBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMg--?p=clinton+anderson+desensitizing+a+horse&vid=a52d1329784c63b1be8dd38aa8b960a1&l=5%3A20&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608044877143084388%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxJGZI8ncZaw&***=Clinton+Anderson+horse+language+demo%2C+Equine+Affaire&c=1&sigr=11bqli3cb&sigt=11kprck4b&sigi=11r03q0oa&age=1229399475&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b

A rescue using a similar system:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A86.J5EdhgFV20UAKConnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBsOXB2YTRjBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--?p=clinton+anderson+desensitizing+a+horse&tnr=21&vid=BE066FF843600BC7CDC7BE066FF843600BC7CDC7&l=550&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608025274907430909%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=11r9qo0eb&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFVNbjYCWF2M&sigr=11balf85c&tt=b&***=Day+5+-+SCEA+Rescue+Horse+-+Desensitizing+to+Spooky+Objects&sigt=11rfjs42f&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dclinton%2Banderson%2Bdesensitizing%2Ba%2Bhorse%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=13ia953sl&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A86.J5EdhgFV20UAKConnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBsOXB2YTRjBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--?p=clinton+anderson+desensitizing+a+horse&tnr=21&vid=BE066FF843600BC7CDC7BE066FF843600BC7CDC7&l=550&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608025274907430909%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=11r9qo0eb&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFVNbjYCWF2M&sigr=11balf85c&tt=b&***=Day+5+-+SCEA+Rescue+Horse+-+Desensitizing+to+Spooky+Objects&sigt=11rfjs42f&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dclinton%2Banderson%2Bdesensitizing%2Ba%2Bhorse%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=13ia953sl&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

Edited by dondie

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I've seen that, a similar one, anyway.

Since I did the crop thing, Sam hasn't laid his ears back at feeding time.

I didn't do the rubbing thing after because, well, I just didn't think of it at the time.

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