nick

Inside Leg, Outside Rein

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maybe the starting of new threads on other than debate or gcc will stimulate activity (as smilie pointed out) and make these boards more interesting.

I ride the horse I ride, and not western or English or baroque or whatever you want to call your focus. and what works for me is inside leg and outside rein. you will NEVER get your horse's body in a renvers or travers (arc, reverse arc) if you are pulling on that inside rein. the ribs won't be open, the horse won't be stepping under, you will NOT be able to work the cow, open the gate, ride traversal, ride straight if you depend on the inside rein. there is the one rein stop, very useful in an emergency situation where you do indeed disengage, rather than make the hindquarters even more powerful with two reins, but for anybody interested in straightness, rhythm and relaxation it's counterproductive. turning your horse with the inside rein just turns his neck and centrifugal force takes his hindquarters out of the circle.

comments?

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I very seldom use rein working cows; just leg. Rein just puts my horse off-stride.

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"Inside rein" puts your horse off stride, inside leg and outside rein and leg keep the arc and the tact. Just like a drummer with a great band.

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I'm certainly not going to agree. As long as you insist on being deliberately obtuse, there's no hope of conversation.

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inside leg, outside rein. do you know what shoulder in is? that helps to understand the biomechanics. and changing the way you set your hips. that's the pathway to flying changes--your hips and timing.

Edited by nick

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and oz, you don't ride. right? I wish you all the best with being able to breathe on the way to visit elmer.

Edited by nick

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and oz, you don't ride. right? I wish you all the best with being able to breathe on the way to visit elmer.

nick, I started riding 56 years ago, and riding cutters since 1968. So stuff your ignorant crap and grow up. Or get over the senile problem.

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inside leg, outside rein. do you know what shoulder in is? that helps to understand the biomechanics. and changing the way you set your hips. that's the pathway to flying changes--your hips and timing.

So if I'm going the right way of the ring, and I want to cross to the other side, you want me to keep my horse's head turned in the opposite direction while cueing him with my left leg to go to the right? Sorry, but I have no idea what you're trying to say. Or why.

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Classically - Outside contact is maintained.

To turn, outside leg moves back slightly, pushing weight onto inside seat bone to activate it as a biomechanic aid. Inside rein on a classically schooled horse should not be used or mean a thing to turn. All bio mechanics from seat/weight aids. Be that simple turns, stopping or all the way up to higher level movements.

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But when riding a well-trained cutter, you don't maintain contact. All else applies.

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It boils down to how classically you ride and how much understanding you have of it. I understand the basics and theory behind it but am not solely classical by any means and pick and choose bits from all styles of riding to suit our needs. We play around with neck reining hacking and yes, in a jump off, I have pulled that inside rein for a tight turn on a few occasions! Predominantly, I try and use outside contact and seat aids. Pelvic/hip placement alteration for different movements etc. It mostly works as we have basic schooling still with no tack (or rather 'had' as he's been off work!)

Right nor wrong depending what you want to do I think. Horses for courses. :)

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It boils down, western,anyway, to what part of the body is out, with the same old concept of having the horse move away from pressure, and learning to stay evenly between the reins. aligned in his entire body, for maneuver asked for Basically, legs, far as a turn, or guide in a circle , should only be need to be used for correction, when a horse fails to 'guide', as is expected of a bridle horse(ie, working off that indirect rein, and without constant bit support.

Therefore, many people ask, what leg to use, in a turn, with some saying inside, and some outside,and I say it depends. On a western horse, that horse should move off of that indirect (outside rein, when it is against his neck, as if it is 'hot' , seeking when he is evenly between those reins again, which happens when your rein hand is back, center of mane

If his shoulders, don't follow through, I will bump with outside leg, slightly ahead of cinch.If he hangs his ribs in, I will use inside leg to push ribs out, and have horse bend correctly.In either case, horse is moving away from pressure-I have not changed the rules

For lateral work, as in a sidepass, again you use moving away from pressure. Bit barrier blocks forward.Outside rein against neck tells horse to move shoulders, outside leg tells him to move the rest of his body. Put it together, and you have a side pass

Reiners teach a horse to seek that circle, and thus run that horse on a loose rein, versus micro managing that horse> In schooling, they will correct that horse, if he fails t guide, bumping him hard with the leg, taking hold, and then again expecting him to stay evenly between the reins)reining one handed. They do not keep a constant inside leg on that horse, to keep that bend, but expect the horse to

Edited by Smilie

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Classically - Outside contact is maintained.

To turn, outside leg moves back slightly, pushing weight onto inside seat bone to activate it as a biomechanic aid. Inside rein on a classically schooled horse should not be used or mean a thing to turn. All bio mechanics from seat/weight aids. Be that simple turns, stopping or all the way up to higher level movements.

You are talking about a horse ridden with two hands and contact,and a horse that needs to be supported between bit and legs, so my answer to Nick, is that it does matter to what horse you are riding, and how he is trained, far as expectations, between western and English. I don't need to use my legs trail riding, to guide my horse, unless he needs correction

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maybe the starting of new threads on other than debate or gcc will stimulate activity (as smilie pointed out) and make these boards more interesting.

I ride the horse I ride, and not western or English or baroque or whatever you want to call your focus. and what works for me is inside leg and outside rein. you will NEVER get your horse's body in a renvers or travers (arc, reverse arc) if you are pulling on that inside rein. the ribs won't be open, the horse won't be stepping under, you will NOT be able to work the cow, open the gate, ride traversal, ride straight if you depend on the inside rein. there is the one rein stop, very useful in an emergency situation where you do indeed disengage, rather than make the hindquarters even more powerful with two reins, but for anybody interested in straightness, rhythm and relaxation it's counterproductive. turning your horse with the inside rein just turns his neck and centrifugal force takes his hindquarters out of the circle.

comments?

Well, my trained western horses ride one handed, so of course you use that outside rein against the neck for a turn, but that does not mean I even need a leg, or if that is inside or outside leg.

If my horse does not move off of that outside rein, then I need to bump him with outside leg, to make his shoulders follow through. If he is stiff, pushing ribs in, I need to add inside leg If he is correct in his turn, as a finished horse should be, he should turn off of that rein, and not need legs

When first training that horse, two handed in the snaffle, you work towards eventually riding that horse totally off of the indirect rein,one handed, while he keeps correct body alignment

Thus, you start by using direct rein, and eng=forcing with indirect rein, using legs as needed, to keep correct alignment in all maneuvers

Once the horse is going well, you start to ask with that outside(indirect ) rein first, only using direct rein as needed. Once he need little help with that inside direct rein, he is ready to move to a curb, which allows 'signal' and more finesse

Horses naturally follow their shoulders,not their nose, until we teach them to follow their nose with their entire body. Thus, you should never use that inside rein, when it is needed, to turn the head any more, then where you can see the outside corner of that inside eye. Shoulders need to follow, with rest of body supple, as you can't ride a ;board'

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N.N., So you're saying to turn your horse to the left, you're using more pressure on the right rein than on the left? And that's classical dressage? I learned dressage from the writings of Alois Podhajsky who was a director of the Spanish Riding School, so I assumed was teaching classical dressage. He clearly states that icreased contact on the inside rein is used to turn a horse to the inside. The outside rein is held steady to keep the horse from overbending. The inside leg is used at the girth as the pivot point, the outside leg behind the girth to keep the back end from falling out. What am I missing?

Edited by jubal

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No, not rein to turn but just a gentle, consistent, subtle contact on the outside rein - not increased or pulled more, just in general. Again, to the extent of most things if done right and correctly, everything should be asked from body weight than reins anyway once on a correctly schooled horse. The whole idea being the horse being light as a feather and in natural self carriage. I cannot comment on reining or anything western as I only have theoretical knowledge on that, nothing personal or practical experience.

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Jubal,

I have "My Horses, My Teachers" which is not technical at all so can't comment on what podhajsky says about aids specificially, but practically speaking if you're using the inside rein to turn it is physically impossible for the horse to execute a turn on the haunches (or a rollback), traversal, renvers, traver, flying changes, because you will have lost the outside shoulder. you have to take the whole body with you and not just the head and neck. you do that with inside leg and outside rein. if you would take a bird's eye view of somebody riding a pirouette to the left you would see steady contact on the right (or outside) rein, a bit of give on the left (or inside rein), the left hip slightly forward, inside thigh opening with the horse's shoulder, outside leg supporting the the straightness.

and there's a reason straightness is on the dressage scale along with rhythm and relaxation. without it you can't execute any of the advanced moves in a way they were meant to be done. let's not forget where dressage comes from after all--the battle field and the bull ring; you couldn't just be riding the front of your horse if you wanted to survive.

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Confusion and controversy often occur because individuals emphasize different aspects of what they do or what they consider others are doing.

When speaking of riding with two hands, one should not simply speak of using one rein. It would be better to consider the use of each rein and how the use would vary in specific instances.

One should also understand that reins are not used in isolation. Whether employed consciously or unconsciously, the disposition and movement of a rider's body influences his horse's movement. A rider often thinks of what he is doing with one part of his body without realizing the effects generated by other parts of his body.

In addition, when riding, circumstances are in constant flux. One may speak in general terms. At the same time, however, both speaker and listener should realize that things change from moment to moment and one must make adjustments. Musicians employ technique as well as basic principles. A rider must be even more flexible in his approach, because his "instrument" has a mind of its own.

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Okay, this is a quote from Podhajsky's book. "The horse is led into the turn by the inside rein and bent around the rider's inside leg at the girth. This leg is also responsible for maintaining the forward motion and the regular rhythm. The outside rein defines the size of the circle and the degree of the position; it helps the outside leg --passive behind the girth-- to bend the horse around the inside leg and to prevent the hindquarters from falling out."

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as for podhasky text I think something got "lost in translation". he spoke broken English but most certainly did NOT write his books in English.

both his description and that of the USDF are very unspecific; "how" lead the horse into the circle with the inside rein? a lot of people new to dressage would interpret it as pulling back on the inside rein which throws the entire body out of position depending on what you want to do with. I do appreciate their explanation of the influence of hip position and that a circle must be a circle and not an egg. otherwise you're wasting your time.

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It is very simple to me, western, versus all that micro managing.

If a horse is taught to guide, known as 'looking through the bridle, he stays between the reins and legs

For a horse to lope a correct circle, he has to have inside shoulder up, hips engaged. With shoulder control, you can move a horse in and out of that circle,using reina against his neck

He is a good exercise and also an evaluation of how much guide your horse has

Set a plylon up. Ride a circle around it, making sure that circle is even distance, all the way around. Do not use your legs on the horse, unless you need to correct him. If you need to hold that horse on that circle, with constant legs on him, he lacks guide

If my horse drifts, I use a thump of either inside leg or outside leg to get him tracking correctly. if a horse drifts either in or out , he is leaning on a rein

Far as lopinga circle, inside reinis up against inside shoulder, on a horse, and if shoulder is leaning on that rein,you first get the horse off that inside shoulder. You then have hip slightly into lead, and drive horse up from behind with outside leg. I think more of shoulder and hip control, and then use reins and legs to make any maneuver easy for the horse

Since one shows a western horse, after age 5, one handed, a lot of exercises are used to teach hip and shoulder control, and takes into consideration that you will be riding one handed, making any leading rein, direct rein pulling, impossible That rein hand should never need to be moved more than an inch or so, from center of mane. Riding with heavier reins, versus 'spagetti reins, helps a horse to feel that outside rein against his neck

Good exercises for shoulder control, is to ride squares instead of circles, first at the walk and jog. A horse has to move those shoulders over in those corners, taking one or two cross over steps

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N.N., So you're saying to turn your horse to the left, you're using more pressure on the right rein than on the left? And that's classical dressage? I learned dressage from the writings of Alois Podhajsky who was a director of the Spanish Riding School, so I assumed was teaching classical dressage. He clearly states that icreased contact on the inside rein is used to turn a horse to the inside. The outside rein is held steady to keep the horse from overbending. The inside leg is used at the girth as the pivot point, the outside leg behind the girth to keep the back end from falling out. What am I missing?

that is how one would hold a horse in the correct bend, in a circle, riding with two hands, western, in a snaffle, to eventually progress the horse to riding one handed You are giving the initial cue in the turn, with the direct rein, laying that outside rein against his neck, to have him learn to associate that rein with the turn, so eventually, he will learn to turn off of that outside rein alone. Legs are helping him learn correct bend

Next step , is to start asking first with that outside rein, and only using inside rein, if the horse needs help. . This is how western differs from English, as you work towards eventually being able to ride that horse one handed, working off of the indirect rein(neck rein )

Having learned those basics, while still in the snaffle, any western horse can be ridden two handed at any time. So, Nick, I don't see where you can say it does not matter, whether you are riding English or western, unless you are only using a different saddle and bridle. If you never progress that horse form needing that inside rein, how do you ride one handed, in all maneuvers?

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both his description and that of the USDF are very unspecific; "how" lead the horse into the circle with the inside rein?

Read more: http://forums.horsecity.com/index.php?showtopic=47105255#ixzz3ykNlxjtC
Well not with a slack rein, which you suggest in a pirouette. As usual, when faced with evidence that doesn't fit your scheme, you attack the messenger. And of course, I never denied the significance of the seat in any maneuver. I will keep riding and training according to the teachings of the masters.

And did you read far enough in the German Equestrian rules to see this passage? Bold is mine.

Riding a Circle
When riding on a circle the horse’s hind quarters must be guided and controlled by the rider’s legs; his forehand by the reins. The circumference of the circle is determined by the circle markers.
The rider’s inside leg, close behind the girth, activates the inside hind leg, helping to maintain the lateral bend and preventing the horse from falling into the circle. The rider’s outside leg should be positioned further behind the girth, controlling the quarters. The rider’s outside leg, together with the inside rein, should maintain the lateral bend and cause the outside hind leg to step further forward.

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Stepping in with how I see it:

I ride almost entirely English and western is very, very different.

Inside leg to outside rein is for balance and support.

The inside leg:

1. Encourages bend through corners or on a circle (and I have indeed ridden on the square, it encourages straightness and hind quarter control).

2. When used in rhythm with the stride encourages the inside hind leg to step further under the horse, improving balance and support and helping the horse remember to come off of their forehand and compensate better for the weight of the rider.

The outside rein:

1. Controls the forward energy generated by the inside leg, again, to keep the horse off of its forehand, and also to "rate" the horse.

2. Prevents the horse from overbending its neck inward through circles, which can then cause the hind end to drift outwards.

On green horses, you do use the inside rein to turn When I ask a trained horse to turn, I drop my inside seat bone, turn my head and tighten the inside leg, nothing more than that. If the horse has less solid self carriage, then I bring the outside leg back. On a greener horse, I may add some inside rein or "open" the inside rein - move my hand inwards. (Some people say an open inside rein is always incorrect, I disagree).

By maintaining the contact primarily with the outside rein and keeping the inside rein light, you avoid pulling the horse's head to the chest, "Setting" the head (which can look good but is incorrect) and give your horse more of a sense of freedom. Some horses will not tolerate the contact being held on both reins and will come behind the bit (overbent) or above the bit (stargazing), or toss the head... (Stargazing is also often a sign a horse is overbitted).

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Well I guess different instructors do have different methods. Just look at all the ones who think a horse's nose should point to his chest. I'll just stick to Podhajsky's teaching.

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