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nick

the declining level of service by american carriers

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anybody flown United lately?  anybody read about American's plan to reduce "seat pitch" (leg room) in economy by 1-2 inches. 

the last time I flew United nobody tried to remove me physically from the plane (removing teeth and requiring hospitalization like that doctor who just wanted to get to work) or berated me for not stowing my hand luggage in the overhead bin fast enough, but the carpet was held together in places by duct tape and the crew acted as they could just care less about customer comfort.  haven't been on American in a long time, but I have flown Lufthansa; Jet Blue and Austrian Airlines and that's a very different experience.    then we have United CEO's classic public statement:   "actions speak louder than words" with regard to that horrendous dragging of the doctor off a flight to make room for crew members because they overbooked.    yes, actions DO speak louder than words. 

is this a another example of our POTUS's "leading by example" giving license to people to act like boors and oafs with complete disregard to excellence in customer service and just plain mutual respect.   or what do you think is behind this growing trend? 

Edited by nick

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Nope. People were acting that way LONG before the current prez took office. You should know that.

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I have always experienced courteous service, and certainly never saw (and I had to fly a lot)  crap like what's been happening lately.    the cluster that is United is from a business standpoint  a ginormous damage control job, and it just keeps happening.   and everybody has a telephone so it goes viral.  what are the suits thinking one has to ask.   CEOs of major corporations who are on those flights and witness this type of customer treatment write articles about it for newspapers like the NYT, who put them on the front page. 

no, I don't think it's a trivial matter or trend

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Its been in the news for the past several years. You are really going to have to reach to blame it on the current president. I know you want to....

Edited by noponies

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Seriously?  The President has *nothing* to do with this airline example you chose to spotlight.  NOTHING.  You are grasping at straws in an effort to lay blame at the feet of a man you do not like.  

Anyone consider that a reason for overbooking of flights could possibly be people trying to reach the bedside of a loved one before they pass?  Or someone has died and the passenger has to get there to handle the arrangements?  

Because that was ME last January - someone I loved died and I had to buy a last-minute ticket (supplying the information of the agency that took control of the body for the airline's verification) for a flight the next day.  Do you know how guilty I felt when the airline asked for passengers to voluntarily give up their seat, knowing that I was a reason why?  Especially when another passenger started loudly complaining about over-booking and the airline having to ask passengers to give up seats they'd reserved and paid for?

 

Devil's Advocate perspective:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/17/mike-rowe-rips-united-ceo-oscar-munoz-for-absolvin/

By Douglas Ernst - The Washington Times - Monday, April 17, 2017

“Dirty Jobs” host Mike Rowe told nearly 5 million Facebook fans on Monday that he is “terrified” of flying with United Airlines — but not for the reasons they might think — after passenger Dr. David Dao was pulled off a recent flight.

United Express Flight 3411 became infamous on April 9 when cellphone video captured authorities pulling Dr. Dao off a flight from Chicago to Louisville, Kentucky. The airlines needed to make room for four crew members, but the 69-year-old refused to leave his seat after being chosen at random.

Mr. Rowe of “Dirty Jobs” and “Somebody’s Gotta Do It” fame said that United CEO Oscar Munoz’s statements on the ordeal may make flying more dangerous.

“I watched a tape of United’s CEO, Oscar Munoz, as he attempted to walk back some earlier comments. He told ABC news that the passenger in question — David Dao — ‘did nothing wrong,’ ” Mr. Rowesaid.

“Now, I’m no longer disturbed, Donna. I’m merely terrified,” Mr. Rowe explained on a Facebook post to Donna Johnson. “Oscar certainly didn’t blame the victim. But in the process of finding him blameless, he suggested that millions of passengers are under no obligation to follow a direct command from United employees. And that’s a **** of a lot more disturbing than a beat-down in the main cabin.”

Mr. Munoztold ABC’s “Nightline” on April 12 when asked if Dr. Dao was at fault in any way: “No, he can’t be. He was a paying passenger on our seat in our aircraft, and no one should be treated that way — period.”

Attorneys for Dr. Dao said last week that they plan on suing the airline for injuries sustained during the altercation with officers from Chicago’s Aviation Department.

Mr. Rowe said the airlines could have handled the situation better, but it should never create an incentive for future passengers to ignore lawful commands.

“The facts are clear: If you want to travel by air, you must agree to do what you’re told,” Mr. Rowe said. “If you don’t, you subject yourself to fine, arrest, constraint, forcible removal, and/or a permanent ban from the friendly skies. It’s all there in the fine print.”

“Personally, I support this policy. I support it because I don’t want to fly across the country in a steel tube filled with people who get to decide which rules they will follow and which they will ignore,” the television host continued.

“I’ve been on too many flights with too many angry people to worry about the specific circumstances of their outrage, or the details of why they took it upon themselves to ignore a direct command. A plane is not a democracy, and the main cabin is no place to organize a sit-in. The main cabin is a place to follow orders,” he concluded.

United Airlines issued a statement on April 13 saying that it will “not ask law enforcement officers to remove passengers from our flights unless it is a matter of safety and security.”

“This can never, will never happen again,” Mr. Munoz told “Nightline.”

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Delta kicks a family of four off a red eye flight from Hawaii to California because the parents refused to give up the seat they had bought and paid for and that their two year old was occupying.  they were threated by the flight personnel with jail time if they didn't comply and having their children put in foster care.  all this because they wanted to sell the seat again.

the FAA has very clear guidelines for flying with young children which includes NOT having them in your, lap rather in a seat or child safety seat in a seat. 

and no Heidi i'm not trying to blame this on the POTUS, but he is certainly a prime example of this kind of reprehensible boorish behavior. 

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Quote

I don’t want to fly across the country in a steel tube filled with people who get to decide which rules they will follow and which they will ignore,

This. It isn't just airlines. Its attitudes all over the country.  So many people are just SURE the rules are for OTHER people and don't apply to them. Look at the idiots behind the wheels of cars, running stopsigns, tailgating, talking on cellphones.....Or ignoring police and getting shot.

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5 hours ago, nick said:

Delta kicks a family of four off a red eye flight from Hawaii to California because the parents refused to give up the seat they had bought and paid for and that their two year old was occupying.  they were threated by the flight personnel with jail time if they didn't comply and having their children put in foster care.  all this because they wanted to sell the seat again.

the FAA has very clear guidelines for flying with young children which includes NOT having them in your, lap rather in a seat or child safety seat in a seat. 

and no Heidi i'm not trying to blame this on the POTUS, but he is certainly a prime example of this kind of reprehensible boorish behavior. 

I read the story and the particular seat was not purchased for the 2yr old, it was purchased for their 18yr old son *who had already flown home on an earlier flight* and was no longer there to use the seat, forfeiting it and therefore making it available for Delta to reassign to another passenger.  It is not rocket science; if you aren't there to use the seat you bought, it will be sold to someone else and you are out the money you spent.

What I don't understand about the story, is why the family hadn't already purchased the necessary seats for their family (since that was how they flew out there and I'd assume it would be the same on the way back) and wanted to put their young child in the older child's seat.  As I understand it, if your name doesn't match exactly as it is spelled on the ticket and your identification, you can't board so why would they think they could just put their younger child in place of the older child who was not present and did not board the plane?  And I am aware that once a family is on board they don't have to sit in their assigned seat but can switch seats - I have done that with my own family to switch the window or aisle seats for preference.  One plane where the husband and I had to sit apart, another passenger switched with one of us so we could sit together and I've done the same with another husband/wife who sat separated when I was flying solo.

As for being "threatened" .... I dislike that word because there is a world of difference between being "threatened" with consequences and threatened with great bodily harm and/or death.  If a passenger does not comply with airline employee's directives, passengers MOST CERTAINLY ARE subject to jail time.  And in the case of parents who are arrested, the children are placed into foster care unless/until family show up to take responsibility for the minor children.  It wasn't necessarily stated as a threat, more an explanation of consequences in hopes of swaying the passenger to comply - though I see how one on the receiving end could misinterpret it as a threat.

 

Regarding the President's behavior and license to be a boor comment?  No.  People are individuals and are responsible for their own actions.  Boors will be boors, no matter where they go or what they do.  You cannot escape yourself or your true nature.  However, I do understand the correlation between monkey-see-monkey-do and cannot discount that entirely - but again, people are responsible for their own behavior.  As to the "disregard of excellence in customer service and just plain mutual respect" .... I would like to comment the customer is NOT always right and respect is a two-way street.  The growing trend I see is exactly what NP pointed out; people think laws and rules are for other people, not themselves and *that* is where respect has begun going down the tubes and creating escalating issues like we see in the news.

Edited by Heidi n Q

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Nope the family had purchased all seats, including the seat for the 18 year old that flew back the night before.  And the next day (after a sleepless night for the infants and parents) they had to buy four new tickets.

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And it STILL isn't the fault of whatever president is in office. Sheer stupidity to try to attach blame that way. As Heidi stated, EVERYONE is responsible for their own behavior. Want to behave like an overbearing chimpanzee, thats on YOU.

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Personal insults on the debate board are not supposed to be tolerated.  I consider calling me a chimpanzee not an insult so guess I won't bother reporting it.  Overbearing?  They have a hierarchy.  Look it up.  

Edited by nick

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You claim that? Thats on you and your guilt. I was actually speaking generically, as I try to keep you blocked so I don't have to deal with your stuff. Not my fault you come up on the sidebar now and then. Wish they would get rid of that.

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It was no more saying you behave like a chimpanzee than you saying people behave like boors and oafs.  It was a generic encompassing statement not directed at any one person.

1 hour ago, nick said:

Nope the family had purchased all seats, including the seat for the 18 year old that flew back the night before.  And the next day (after a sleepless night for the infants and parents) they had to buy four new tickets.

So, if they had bought FIVE seats for the flight home and teen son who flew home the night before wasn't there to claim his seat ...... what was the problem?  The family should have taken their assigned seats and let the teen's seat go back to the airline, per airline's policy.

 

I looked at more articles to get better information and found what I needed:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/family-kicked-off-delta-flight-wants-apology/  According to Schear, his family purchased four tickets to return home after vacationing in Maui, Hawaii. But at the last minute, their teenager took an earlier flight home, leaving an empty seat on their flight. The couple initially planned to have their young children sit on their laps, but when plans changed, they assumed they could use the open seat to put one of the toddlers in a car seat. 

 

My takeaway:  Their son wasn't there to claim the seat purchased in his name so he forfeited that seat/cost and the airline was within their rights to reassign the seat.  The family should have held the child on their lap as they initially planned and addressed the issue with the airline after the flight.  

I doubt they would have been successful because the person the seat was purchased for was not present and per airline policy, the fare is forfeit and they can reassign the seat to another waiting passenger.  Had they not been adamant in their arguing, they could have flown home that night and not had to find overnight accommodation, transportation and new airline tickets.

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59 minutes ago, Heidi n Q said:

It was no more saying you behave like a chimpanzee than you saying people behave like boors and oafs.  It was a generic encompassing statement not directed at any one person.

So, if they had bought FIVE seats for the flight home and teen son who flew home the night before wasn't there to claim his seat ...... what was the problem?  The family should have taken their assigned seats and let the teen's seat go back to the airline, per airline's policy.

 

I looked at more articles to get better information and found what I needed:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/family-kicked-off-delta-flight-wants-apology/  According to Schear, his family purchased four tickets to return home after vacationing in Maui, Hawaii. But at the last minute, their teenager took an earlier flight home, leaving an empty seat on their flight. The couple initially planned to have their young children sit on their laps, but when plans changed, they assumed they could use the open seat to put one of the toddlers in a car seat. 

 

My takeaway:  Their son wasn't there to claim the seat purchased in his name so he forfeited that seat/cost and the airline was within their rights to reassign the seat.  The family should have held the child on their lap as they initially planned and addressed the issue with the airline after the flight.  

I doubt they would have been successful because the person the seat was purchased for was not present and per airline policy, the fare is forfeit and they can reassign the seat to another waiting passenger.  Had they not been adamant in their arguing, they could have flown home that night and not had to find overnight accommodation, transportation and new airline tickets.

Their 18 year old son flew home the night before.  The seat that night was paid for.  The FAA says NO children travel on parents laps.

noponies should i help you put me on ignore?  I'm sure I'll find a way.

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21 minutes ago, nick said:

Their 18 year old son flew home the night before.  The seat that night was paid for.  The FAA says NO children travel on parents laps.

noponies should i help you put me on ignore?  I'm sure I'll find a way.

 

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Why this repeats itself I don't know.  Heidi

the next day after a sleepless night with two toddlers they had to buy four new tickets to get home.  Fly the Friendly Skies.  When I book and pay for a ticket and the Airline is too stupid and overbooks and i have client/contract obligations of course I don't give up my seat.   Unless the Airline agrees to FULL compensation, including patient harm if I'm a doctor who was supposed to be in attendance the next day.  It's called malpractice,  fully now in United's lap among other things .

 

 

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28 minutes ago, nick said:

Their 18 year old son flew home the night before.  The seat that night was paid for.  The FAA says NO children travel on parents laps.

The 18yr old's seat was paid for but he was not there to claim his seat.  What are you not understanding?  Airline tickets aren't like general admission movie tickets - each passenger has a specific ticket/seat.  If that passenger isn't there to use the ticket in their name and claim their seat, they have forfeited the fare and the seat .... which is what happened with the Schear's.

 

This is from Delta's site but I believe most major airlines have similar policies:  http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/planning-a-trip/booking-information/fare-classes-and-tickets/ticket-rules-restrictions.html

"Tickets are valid for the named passenger only and are not transferable." 

 

FAA:  https://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/ .... The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) strongly urges you to secure your child in a CRS or device for the duration of your flight. It's the smart and right thing to do so that everyone in your family arrives safely at your destination. The FAA is giving you the information you need to make informed decisions about your family's travel plans.

It appears FAA makes suggestions for safety but does not demand or regulate airline policy in this matter?  Perhaps that (purchased seats for EVERY passenger regardless of age) is a change that should be implemented.

 

Delta's policy on flying with young children: http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/special-travel-needs/children.html

Ticketing Requirements
No Ticket Required
You may travel with one1 infant in your lap without purchasing a ticket if:

  • the infant is less than two years old, and
  • you are at least 18 years old or the infant's legal guardian, and
  • your travel is within the U.S.2

Ticket Required
You'll need to purchase a ticket for your child when you:

  • have a child that is age two or older.
  • have a child that turns age two during a trip — a reserved seat and ticket are required for the entire journey.
  • prefer the child to sit in a seat with an approved restraint.
  • have a second child, regardless of age, and you already have a child who will be sitting in your lap.1
  • want your child to earn miles for a SkyMiles account.
  • will be traveling between countries, regardless of whether or not the child occupies a seat.

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27 minutes ago, nick said:

Why this repeats itself I don't know.  Heidi

the next day after a sleepless night with two toddlers they had to buy four new tickets to get home.  Fly the Friendly Skies.  When I book and pay for a ticket and the Airline is too stupid and overbooks and i have client/contract obligations of course I don't give up my seat.   Unless the Airline agrees to FULL compensation, including patient harm if I'm a doctor who was supposed to be in attendance the next day.  It's called malpractice,  fully now in United's lap among other things .

What is the context of th above?  Are you saying if anyone flying with an airline is delayed and it causes inconvenience, loss of income or anything else (doctor delayed for a scheduled surgery) that the airline is liable?  Sorry, I can't buy that, it is travel and travel by its' very nature is capricious and subject to the whims of God/Nature and the foibles of men.  If you, as a doctor, have to be in surgery the next day and the airline has a delay, perhaps you (the doctor) need to schedule your itinerary better to allow for unplanned issues.

As for the Schear family that had to buy 4 new tickets the next day .... they could have flown home on their original flight if they had stuck to their original plan for each family member.  I understand they were upset they had paid for a seat for another family member, but that family member WAS NOT THERE TO USE THE SEAT so it was assigned to someone else per airline policy.  Sucks to be them, but I believe most airlines have a non-transferable ticket policy.  

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23 hours ago, nick said:

Their 18 year old son flew home the night before.  The seat that night was paid for.  The FAA says NO children travel on parents laps.

noponies should i help you put me on ignore?  I'm sure I'll find a way.

What part of putting me on the ignore function don't you understand?

how about if you start a topic as opposed to constantly attempting to demean those who feel like contributing to this website?  

Oh, I forgot, it is just I.  Carry on.

 I'll continue to try to help you.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, nick said:

What part of putting me on the ignore function don't you understand?

how about if you start a topic as opposed to constantly attempting to demean those who feel like contributing to this website?  

Oh, I forgot, it is just I.  Carry on.

 I'll continue to try to help you.

 

 

 

We tend to see our faults in others.

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1 hour ago, noponies said:

We all have our faults. Even nick. (did you quote that just to be onery?)

I think that's what I said.

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I don't understand your post. Lets just start over. I think we've all been on the business end of Nick's "demeaning" comments and so I find it ironic of her to say that someone else makes demeaning comments about her. What goes around, comes around I guess.

It's a debate forum. If everyone had the same opinion, there would be no debate. If you don't have an opinion or don't care to debate it, you are not obligated to debate. If you don't debate, that doesn't make you ill informed or uninterested in the world around you. This has nothing to do with this thread, but we've been derided before for both those things.

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