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MoonStar

Ever wonder.....

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Anybody else ever sold a dang nice horse they did NOT want to sell & the outfit you sold him to (who said they were taking him to one hellabig sale....why you sold to them) never sold him with papers so there is no tracking now?  Just hope you run back up around him someday? Yes....I know why they held the papers back b/c of a certain name...which was BS...still like to see my boy again, atleast know he's wth I pointed his future...he was a jamUP guy.

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Yep. There's one 20 yr old blaze faced sorrel gelding out there, AQHA registered name is Grandpas Tinker Toy, with my name still on his papers. Ex got him in the divorce, sold him to his brother in WI, who then sold him to someone else... no way to find him, but he was the most level headed guy, nothing ever spooked him, and he would do anything asked. 

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^^^^^^^Same story here...mine would be 12...name still on those papers I'm for SURE are still in someone's exploding file cabinet full of papers to match up....yeah.  I did everything with him from 6 months old...and did alright....smooth as glass.

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So, when I see quarter horses,  with no papers, sold here that came from out West, (they advertise as ranch horses and go for as much as $4,000) they were probably shipped without their papers?  What names are they avoiding?  Impressive?  Linebred Poco Bueno?

We also have AQHA ranches that sell good, locally raised,  ranch horses.  

 

Edited by little cow

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Absolutely possible Little Cow.  Definitely Impressive in my case...which was so far back it fell off so I never HYPP tested.  The traders out west would want way more than $4k too.  Billings Sale is a huge one for example.  There are quite a few outfits that like to weed out alot of ones that won't cut it on the ranches however, and I suppose they just don't want to register them.  Doesn't mean they aren't nice using horses, they just got the shaft as far as papers go.  I know a family that has bred/raised AQHA for 30+ years and run a trail ride outfit in CO...if they sold you one of theirs, they **** sure come with their papers.  Other side of the coin.  Do good business with good people.  Lesson learned here!!

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On 10/23/2017 at 4:19 AM, little cow said:

So, when I see quarter horses,  with no papers, sold here that came from out West, (they advertise as ranch horses and go for as much as $4,000) they were probably shipped without their papers?  What names are they avoiding?  Impressive?  Linebred Poco Bueno?

We also have AQHA ranches that sell good, locally raised,  ranch horses.  

 

Some of those ranch horses came from parents with no papers. When it comes to ranch work, ability is more important to them than who your daddy was.

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On 10/25/2017 at 3:47 PM, noponies said:

Some of those ranch horses came from parents with no papers. When it comes to ranch work, ability is more important to them than who your daddy was.

The same could be said for people....:P

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Heck yeah Noponies......"grade" my dead dyin Indian tail!!  Still want my scrapper back!!  Burn those "papers".

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The only use I have for papers (since I don't show horses) is for genetic issues.   I would like to know the stallion and mare my horse came from and see that they are still sound.  Some breeds do have a lot of issues.  I wouldn't take a chance with certain dog breeds either, for the same reason (GSD, Lab, Golden).   We paid a lot for a well-bred GSD from a breeder that has less than one litter per year.  His pups are working lines, rather than bench dogs, and our dog is sound, both physically and mentally, at 8 years old.  That was worth the extra money.  

Ranch horses lines have appeal because of soundness, but there are many ranches that buy and sell grade horses not bred by them.  It's a nice way to earn a tidy profit.  Buy a horse cheap, ride him and work him on the ranch for 30 days and sell him.  I sure don't blame them for it, but there is a risk associated as a buyer because you don't know about that horse's future soundness. 

I also know a ranch not too far away that sells all their horses young.  Sure they were sound at three, but since they don't keep any, how do I know they will still be sound at thirteen?   No mention or pictures of the parents.  If I visited them, I sure would like to see aged sires and dams still sound. 

I have had a horse with navicular. He was a beloved family member and we had to put him down at 24 after struggling to keep him sound for 6 years.  I would rather go through great lengths and pay more to know that our next horse has sound parents.  

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^^^Is Navicular genetic? I thought it was more a function of conformation and shoeing/trimming. Navicular is misdiagnosed a lot. Horses that are diagnosed as navicular can many times be rehabbed by turnout and proper shoeing or trimming.

When I buy a horse, I pay no attention to papers. I go strictly on conformation and the environment it was raised in. I've always bought young horses though, not ones who have had more than one owner. And I don't breed them.

Edited by jubal

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16 hours ago, jubal said:

^^^Is Navicular genetic? I thought it was more a function of conformation and shoeing/trimming. Navicular is misdiagnosed a lot. Horses that are diagnosed as navicular can many times be rehabbed by turnout and proper shoeing or trimming.

When I buy a horse, I pay no attention to papers. I go strictly on conformation and the environment it was raised in. I've always bought young horses though, not ones who have had more than one owner. And I don't breed them.

The university vet hospital near us treated our horse for navicular (and helped us make the decision when his time came).  When we asked about the cause of navicular, they were absolutely certain that genetics were involved.  In addition, knowing that navicular typically shows up between ages 7 and 14, when you are looking at breeds that tend to have navicular, it would be good to see older, sound breeding stock.  

Found this article:

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/26592/navicular-syndrome-potential-genes-involved-identified

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I was just thinking about when I was searching for a breeding stallion for my AQHA mare years ago.  I did not want to do AI because I wanted to see the stallion in person.  I didn't end up breeding her because, although I visited some beautiful local AQHA and APHA stallions, none of them were fully sound.   The irony is that they were world champion animals; some many times over, but by the time they were about ten, their careers were over.  This was back when there were less ways to treat navicular.  Now, I suppose you need to be even more careful.  

Edited by little cow

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A lot of that "disease" in the older horses could have been damage incurred in their careers. For instance, western pleasure horses that were forced into the "peanut roller" trot, along with long toe trim style, developed navicular. Reining horses are usually not sound for long. And race horses shod with a  long toe often develop navicular. And as I said before, a lot of "navicular" horse are returned to soundness after their diagnosis.

My horse was diagnosed with navicular at six years old, by a respected  thoroughbred vet, from x-rays. A farrier shod him after hearing instructions from the vet. I didn't hear their conversation, but I suspect he was told to raise the heel and roll the toe. A few days later, the horse was down in the stall, foundered. I had his shoes pulled and it was a long road back to soundness, using barefoot trimming. He is sound now and has been for nine years, except for a cyst removed from his annular ligament in 2011.. He's barefoot and I've trimmed him using Pete Ramey's methods.

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We just put Phoenix down this past spring.  Some horses recover and sometimes shoeing or trimming helps, but many are too far gone.  We tried every method out there.  Phoenix was a great horse with an excellent temperament so he deserved the extra mile.  I learned a lot from the orthopedic vets and expert shoers.  Enough to be very careful about buying another horse.  There is a genetic basis and farriers have been complaining for decades about bad feet on stock horses.  

Edited by little cow

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I definitely agree that conformation can dispose a horse to any number of problems. But I don't think caudal heel pain is always caused by navicular disease, even though it is usually diagnosed as that.

That said, I went to a horse auction a few years back, strictly for entertainment. There was a seven year old, beautiful sorrel registered quarter horse there. This was a country auction and horses go very cheaply. I was curious about this one because I couldn't figure out why he was there. My friend talked to the owner and found out he had been diagnosed with navicular and they had tried everything with him. I had to leave the auction pavillion to stop myself from buying him. I really, really wanted to try to rehab him, but I knew if I couldn't get him sound, I wouldn't be able to sell him. I can't sell a horse.

He went for four hundred dollars, and the auctioneer said, "Highest price of the night and it was a lame horse!  We have any more lame ones back there?"  I still wonder what happened to him. My friend said they'd probably nerve him and sell him to someone else.

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We considered nerving Phoenix, but it wasn't recommended for our horse.  He was still uncomfortable with a nerve block.  There was more going on, such as ligament involvement (not unusual in navicular horses). 

I think the vet school near me calls it "navicular syndrome" because of other structures involved beyond the navicular bone shape.  The genetic side is interesting because the research has found a shape of the navicular bone that is showing more inclination towards navicular syndrome, but it also involves the supporting structures.   This is what I remember the vets explaining.  I hope I got it right.

Post legged horses are recent trend  in stock horses, as are heavy horses on small hooves.  There are also many stock horses that are built 'downhill'.  A horse naturally carries 60% of his weight on his front legs, which is why most lameness occurs in the front legs (unless it's a high level dressage horse).  When a horse's hip is too high, more weight shifts forward and that percentage increases.  Is there a connection between overall leg structure, conformation, and navicular bone shape that leads to navicular syndrome?  I think that's the latest theory. 

Also, some horses are not showing pain with the same x-rays as a horse that does.  There is still much to know.  

I think the best answer for me is to avoid any indication of heel pain in breeder's horses.  Avoid post legged horses and those with smaller hooves and heavy bodies.  Watch out for downhill horses.  I was surprised the first time I rode Phoenix because my first AQHA horse was different.  She felt more balanced to me.  Her withers were higher than her hip.  She was also sound through 30 years of age.  Phoenix didn't look downhill, but his motion tipped me forward in the saddle.  Something is being inherited and I just don't want to roll the dice and lose again.  

Will my next horse be a stock horse?  I'm not sure.  I love my Morgan mare.  My husband definitely wants a stock horse, so I have to figure out how to find a sound one for him.  :smile:

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