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little cow

Has anyone not been sexually harassed?

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LC, I think you need to talk to someone who has a psychiatry degree. Priests don't, as a rule. I have heard many times that child sexual abusers have little chance of stopping the behavior, even when they have psychiatric help. That's why they are required to register with authorities and can't live within  an area near a school. Priests are in the business of forgiveness. If you choose to forgive him, that's admirable. But I don't think that lessens the chances of his abusing again.

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9 hours ago, jubal said:

LC, I think you need to talk to someone who has a psychiatry degree. Priests don't, as a rule. I have heard many times that child sexual abusers have little chance of stopping the behavior, even when they have psychiatric help. That's why they are required to register with authorities and can't live within  an area near a school. Priests are in the business of forgiveness. If you choose to forgive him, that's admirable. But I don't think that lessens the chances of his abusing again.

I appreciate your concern, but I don't need a shrink. This situation doesn't interfere with life.  I don't need medication.  I don't need any counseling other than what has been provided through the Church.  I have been working on forgiving my half brother because I don't want to carry this burden anymore.  This is the last step that I feel I need.  If it is refused or ignored, I can still finish forgiving him on my own.  That doesn't mean I won't do something else to ensure the safety of my nieces, however.   

All the research I've done indicates that older children who abuse other children have a much lower rate of recidivism than adult child abusers.  Especially if it was not with multiple victims.  While I know my half brother's history with women as an adult was not good, it was along the lines of trying to take advantage of women, rather than outright assault.  Scummy?  Yes.  Illegal?  Not that I know of.  

Is he a different person now than he was?  Yes.  All reports from family members (my oldest brother especially) indicate a healthy, loving relationship with his wife.  He met her after he got through his drug treatment program and he's been clean for years.  This is good.  Does he still do things that I find repulsive?  Well, yes, but they have to do with wheedling more money out of dad.  

His reaction to a letter will tell me who he really is now.  Is he looking to rid himself of a burden of conscience?  Or, is he in denial and trying to hide it?  These things will dictate my next step.  Will he share this letter with his wife?  If he has become who I hope he is; yes.  If not, that tells me something more may be needed.  

Edited by little cow

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28 minutes ago, little cow said:

I appreciate your concern, but I don't need a shrink. This situation doesn't interfere with life.  I don't need medication.  I don't need any counseling other than what has been provided through the Church.  I have been working on forgiving my half brother because I don't want to carry this burden anymore.  This is the last step that I feel I need.  If it is refused or ignored, I can still finish forgiving him on my own.  That doesn't mean I won't do something else to ensure the safety of my nieces, however.   

All the research I've done indicates that older children who abuse other children have a much lower rate of recidivism than adult child abusers.  Especially if it was not with multiple victims.  While I know my half brother's history with women as an adult was not good, it was along the lines of trying to take advantage of women, rather than outright assault.  Scummy?  Yes.  Illegal?  Not that I know of.  

Is he a different person now than he was?  Yes.  All reports from family members (my oldest brother especially) indicate a healthy, loving relationship with his wife.  He met her after he got through his drug treatment program and he's been clean for years.  This is good.  Does he still do things that I find repulsive?  Well, yes, but they have to do with wheedling more money out of dad.  

His reaction to a letter will tell me who he really is now.  Is he looking to rid himself of a burden of conscience?  Or, is he in denial and trying to hide it?  These things will dictate my next step.  Will he share this letter with his wife?  If he has become who I hope he is; yes.  If not, that tells me something more may be needed.  

I certainly didn't mean you needed to talk to a psychiatrist about your own mental health. I'm sorry you inferred that. I only thought a mental health professional could advise you about your brother's safety around children. Forgiving your abuser as a way to obtain peace of mind for yourself is admirable, as I stated.

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Oh, I get it.  Sorry, Jubal!

I've read a lot about it and it really is case by case.  Part of me wishes I would have reported it earlier to the police.  Even ten years or so, it could still have been followed up on.  CA law has changed recently, so I sent an email to the local police department to make sure the statute of limitations is over.

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LC,   Just want to wish you well as you deal with all the fall out that comes with any sort of abuse.  As for a priest  or any man of the cloth, I think some are wise & can give good advice.  PD

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On 12/20/2017 at 11:36 AM, equicrzy said:

 That's just it, a woman gets what she wants through sexual favors, it's the man's fault....very little is usually said about the woman who made the choice to prostitute herself for a job.

It is the man's fault if he lets a woman manipulate him. I have never understood why the woman gets the blame for the man's lack of judgement. I was promoted at my job one time because my boss like to look at me. How is that my fault? He did ask me out eventually and I did turn him down. None of that was my doing. I was young, in great shape and am naturally very outgoing. Some would say flirty. I wore business clothes, suits that were often pencil skirts with a blazer or jacket and high heels. Some would say I was flaunting my looks because the skirts were short and tight, the jackets tailored and well fitting and the heels quite high and I favored stilettos. I never tried to lead the guy on, never talked about my personal life and we did not move in the same social circles since I ran cross country, played volley ball and competed in body building in my personal time. Again though, I was very outgoing, laughed easily and got along with everybody so many thought I was flirty. 

On 12/20/2017 at 11:51 AM, TigerLilly said:

What one thinks is not the issue. It is about what people DO. 

Exactly.

On 12/20/2017 at 12:12 PM, little cow said:

Oh, I have to disagree about that.  PLENTY is said about women who sleep their way up. The worst part is that I have heard people say it much more often about women who are not doing anything.  They just gossip and snipe that she must be doing something with the boss because she is doing better than someone else with sour grapes.  Women can be very cruel to other women this way. 

The other popular gossip is saying that since that woman turned a man down, she must be a lesbian.  This is heard more often from men.  Both actions are despicable.  

So, I guess the point is that sometimes it doesn't matter what you do or don't do.  The workplace can be very unfriendly.  

Blackmailing men is done as well.  The thing men can do is not to have one on one conversations with women behind closed doors without a witness.  

I've been accused of sleeping my way up on a couple of jobs, including my current one. It is interesting to note those that were the loudest in their accusations are no longer employed by this company and here I am, working on 20 years. 

I sit in on a lot of staff disciplinary cases since I am a female supervisor. Male supervisors will never have a one-on-one conversation with a female subordinate. I, int urn, will not have a one-on-one conversation with a male subordinate for the same reasons. I have a little age on me now and have been accused of disciplining a male subordinate because he did not respond positively to my "suggestions" for improving he status at work. What?

On 12/20/2017 at 12:47 PM, TigerLilly said:

This comes from a college class I had years ago that I thought was thought provoking. Figured I would share.

Woman goes out to the bar in very short shorts and tank. She looks cute and sexy. She flirts with a man and he buys her a drink but after a bit she realizes she is not interested after all. For whatever reason that she does not have to justify she has decided to leave. But that man thinks she is dressed too provocatively to go home alone and after all he did buy her a drink. So in his mind she either owes him or she is a tease. 

Common and goes both ways actually. Men know how to play this game now and I saw many in my years as a bartender get free drinks all night just to call a cab rather than take the woman home with them.  She owes him nothing. She may well be a tease and enjoy attracting a man then turning him down. Not illegal and he should have the self-control to accept no and go on with his life. 

Or she goes out and and the man offers to buy her a drink but she declines. Well then she is just an ungrateful wentch. How dare she come into this bar dressed like that and turn me down.

Yep, happens regularly with men and women. Getting turned down by an attractive person is just part of life isn't it?

Or let's say she does choose to go home with the man. She has a mutually consenting one-night-stand.  Well then she is a loose woman. 

LOL. I have never really cared about what people in general think about what I do, or don't do. My grandmother told me when I was very young that a lot of time was wasted worrying about what someone that was not sleeping in my bed or paying my bills thought about what I did or said. I think a person knows when they make a choice what the rumor mill will have to say about it. If they chose the on night stand, it should be with eyes wide open.

What if she went home with a man but she changed her mind at home. Well he put too much work into this so he rapes her. She wanted it anyways, just look how she was dressed. You do not dress like that if you do not want it, right?  She should have known better and she got what she deserves. 

Nope. No means no even is one of them waits until they are both naked and inches from sealing the deal. A grown woman should have better sense than to let something she doesn't want go that far but she still has the right to stop the action at any time. So does he!

An escort goes out dressed seductively. She has no interest in taking clients she is just out with friends. A man noticed her from previous occasions. But tonight he wants services on the cheap. Slips her a pill in her drink. So what, she is an escort. She gives it out all of the time to anyone who pays. What she doesn't know won't hurt her and the police won't help her because I know she is just an escort.  And in everyone else's eyes she doesn't have ownership of her own body. 

I don't think this is totally applicable these days. Drugging someone in order to take advantage of them is illegal no matter who that person is or how they are dressed. Even in my backwards town, local police would arrest, juries will convict and judges will sentence a person that does this. So much of this has come to light it is no longer widely accepted as OK because she was "just" a prostitute/escort/drug addict/whatever. My mom watched cop shows all of the time and I see the sting operations to get the prostitutes (some of them are men), the customers and the pimps. 

It gets worse.

A street prostitute is picked up by a John. Nobody knows who she is with or where she went. She just disappeared. She is just a prostitute. No big loss. It happens again to another prostitute and another. Word on the street is that girls are coming up missing. Cops won't bother with it until there is a public outcry. These women made their choice.Then a local young lady comes up missing. They eventually find her deceased along with all those missing prostitutes nobody really cared about.  Had they valued the lives of those worthless prostitutes at all, maybe that last girl would not have died? Those prostitutes are as much a victim as the young lady. 

I don't know anyone who thinks a prostitute's life is worthless. It would be/is sad that attention was not paid to this situation until a "respectable" woman was killed. 

Where do we draw the line on who is valued and who is just trash that deserves what they get? 

No line drawing permitted. This is where I think our criminal justice system needs real work. A person can get away with almost anything if they have enough money. Society has long valued the lives of those with money more than the lives of those without. I see this daily in my line of work. A person will get sentenced to much more time for stealing money than for stealing life. It is very upside down. 

I know these scenarios are uncomfortable and they are not meant in any way as an attack on anyone here. This is an exercise in challenging perspectives. And can be used for both women and men. 

 

None of these took more than a millisecond to sort out in my mind. No thought required. Touching another persons body without their consent is wrong and it doesn't matter what the circumstances are. 

On 12/21/2017 at 10:03 AM, noponies said:

You would have to be a complete and utter moron to not understand women most definitely sexually harass and assault men, more than a little frequently.

I believe it is sexual harassment for a woman to "come on" to  man in the workplace. Unfortunately it is not yet taken seriously in my world but, as women gain power in the public, it will be. What people do off the clock doesn't concern me but sexuality has no place in professionalism. It is important to me to be thought of as a hard worker, loyal employee with great ethics, trustworthy and reliable supervisor, and an asset to the company I work for. I don't care if they know my gender or sexuality! 

I just don't know that calling folks morons is the way to state your case though.

 

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Kdrown, it sounds like things worked out for you, but it wasn't easy at work. I think most of us find this to be true.  Especially in jobs where men have always been in charge, a women becoming the boss is a new thing.  Men can suffer, too, but there are more men in positions of power at this time.  

Edited by little cow

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It's a man's fault, if he lets a woman manipulate him?  Yes, generally speaking, as in, she's using him for his money.  If a woman, wanting to get ahead in her career, goes after the man she knows can make it happen, in a sexual manner, she's just as guilty as he is, maybe more so, because she SET OUT to do it.

 Sexual misconduct, by either sex, is wrong, just plain wrong, but, women do it just as much, if not more, than men, the men are usually just too macho to admit they've been assaulted....by a woman.

 No, it isn't a woman's fault if she receives unwanted looks, touches or, comments.....in most cases..... I have to say that, because, I've known/seen too many women who would do anything to get the attention of the opposite sex, women like that, give all women a bad name.

 Im just being honest, here, I mean no disrespect to anyone, it's just, when you've seen it in action.....well...

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8 hours ago, equicrzy said:

It's a man's fault, if he lets a woman manipulate him?  Yes, generally speaking, as in, she's using him for his money.  If a woman, wanting to get ahead in her career, goes after the man she knows can make it happen, in a sexual manner, she's just as guilty as he is, maybe more so, because she SET OUT to do it.

 Sexual misconduct, by either sex, is wrong, just plain wrong, but, women do it just as much, if not more, than men, the men are usually just too macho to admit they've been assaulted....by a woman.

 No, it isn't a woman's fault if she receives unwanted looks, touches or, comments.....in most cases..... I have to say that, because, I've known/seen too many women who would do anything to get the attention of the opposite sex, women like that, give all women a bad name.

 Im just being honest, here, I mean no disrespect to anyone, it's just, when you've seen it in action.....well...

Thank you for your honesty. I can only wish more women were honest about it. Seems most women would rather see what they can get playing the blame game.

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    We live in a world where sexual morality has reached a new low, so no doubt there is room for blame on both sides,  but the fact remains, that if a man is enticed by a woman, seldom is it violent or forced. Where men that assault  women & children, it is both violent & forced. No doubt that sex is used by both sexes, in the work place to gain favor & to move up in position. All we have to do is look at government officials that have been accused, or military officers that are rumored to exploit young people under them for sexual favors.  PD

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What I'm referring to are the women who CLAIM violence when none was involved, simply because things didn't go their way, or because there was a chance for money or notoriety.And this DOES happen a LOT.

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1 hour ago, Proud Dad said:

    We live in a world where sexual morality has reached a new low, so no doubt there is room for blame on both sides,  but the fact remains, that if a man is enticed by a woman, seldom is it violent or forced. Where men that assault  women & children, it is both violent & forced. No doubt that sex is used by both sexes, in the work place to gain favor & to move up in position. All we have to do is look at government officials that have been accused, or military officers that are rumored to exploit young people under them for sexual favors.  PD

Amen! How many women were accused in the recent Hollywood expose or accused of sexual harrassment by men in government?

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1 hour ago, noponies said:

What I'm referring to are the women who CLAIM violence when none was involved, simply because things didn't go their way, or because there was a chance for money or notoriety.And this DOES happen a LOT.

np, I can agree that there are women that falsely accuse men of sexual misconduct,  the downside of that is, it those that have been sexually assaulted, they might be less believed, if they come forward. I raised 2 daughters, & have 3 grandaughters,  I don't them taken advantage of,. or not believed if they would be assaulted.  PD

 

Edited by Proud Dad

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3 hours ago, noponies said:

What I'm referring to are the women who CLAIM violence when none was involved, simply because things didn't go their way, or because there was a chance for money or notoriety.And this DOES happen a LOT.

Where?

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I was hoping that the Bill Cosby case would turn out to be people not telling the truth, because I liked Bill Cosby.  Alas, it appears that it was all credible.  Then, I thought about the poor women.  

Kudos to those who come forward in cases where the suspect is a popular celebrity or politician.  It must take a lot to do that knowing their team of the best lawyers are going to drag your name through the mud.  They are going to investigate every relationship you've ever had.  Every one might stand.  Every time you've been drinking or in a bar or club.  How you dress, act, look, everything.  They are going to say things about your character that will be so embarrassing that you just want to hide for the rest of your life.  You will get death threats from rabid fans.  People who know you will know about your sex life.  Your privacy is gone.  You will doubt your own memory and lose friends.  I can't imagine that.  

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19 hours ago, jubal said:

Where?

http://www.tmz.com/2017/12/29/avery-bradley-confidentiality-agreement-rape-claim/

https://nypost.com/2009/12/07/woman-confesses-to-lying-about-rape-story-that-sent-man-to-prison/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Dotson

It is fairly common, even if it isn't readily available in a Google Search. 
I've worked at two Sheriff Offices in two states.  Two counties ~ Klickitat County, WA 1904 square miles, population 21k and Walton County, GA 330 square miles, population 89k ~ in a country of fifty states with *3142 counties that encompasses 3.8 million miles squared and a population of upwards of 323 million. 

All of the things that happened in my two counties, where neither included a major city, are happening everywhere else and probably in greater numbers due to population density and diversity in more metropolitan areas.  It was a major point of mental anguish for me as I performed my secretarial duties.  I spoke with the Sheriff about this strain and hearing him tell me about the people he was able to help out of those situations, helped me to continue my work for the office, though it remained incredibly difficult.  

*counties, parishes, boroughs, census areas, independent cities and DC for a total of 3142 counties and county-equivalents.

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Thank you Heidi. Its good to know there ARE women with the good sense to remain impartial enough to seek the truth.

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The liars make it worse for those seeking justice.  I remember a case where a woman lied about being assaulted and she actually did jail time for what she did.  That is unusual though.  There should be stiffer penalties for lying.  The damage done is hard to undo.  

Edited by little cow

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1 hour ago, little cow said:

The liars make it worse for those seeking justice.  I remember a case where a woman lied about being assaulted and she actually did jail time for what she did.  That is unusual though.  There should be stiffer penalties for lying.  The damage done is hard to undo.  

The damage done is just as hard to erase as the damage from an actual rape. It should receive a similar penalry.

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guess you've never been a target of predatory behavior.  to be female, pretty, pleasant and smart  in this world as a woman, unless you have solid financial backing or bodyguards  you could wind up toast.  women in coal´mines, up power poles in subzero temps, in shipyards,   you cannot contend that these women "asked for it". "the devil made me do it" or it was "all her fault" disgraces men.  you want to tell me that men cannot control themselves?  is that the message?   oh dear,

 

 

this world (I don'tnca

 

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31 minutes ago, nick said:

guess you've never been a target of predatory behavior.  to be female, pretty, pleasant and smart  in this world as a woman, unless you have solid financial backing or bodyguards  you could wind up toast.  women in coal´mines, up power poles in subzero temps, in shipyards,   you cannot contend that these women "asked for it". "the devil made me do it" or it was "all her fault" disgraces men.  you want to tell me that men cannot control themselves?  is that the message?   oh dear,

 

 

this world (I don'tnca

 

A woman doesn't have to be anything but a woman to be assaulted.

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50 minutes ago, nick said:

guess you've never been a target of predatory behavior.  to be female, pretty, pleasant and smart  in this world as a woman, unless you have solid financial backing or bodyguards  you could wind up toast.  women in coal´mines, up power poles in subzero temps, in shipyards,   you cannot contend that these women "asked for it". "the devil made me do it" or it was "all her fault" disgraces men.  you want to tell me that men cannot control themselves?  is that the message?   oh dear,

 

 

this world (I don'tnca

 

Most men control themselves just fine, but there are a few animals in the gender. I can only wish more women would follow suit. Bye Felicia.

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21 minutes ago, jubal said:

A woman doesn't have to be anything but a woman to be assaulted.

And a man doesn't have to be anything but a man to be falsely accused. I'm feeling you and nick would both be likely to do so if you thought you could get away with it, for less provocation than a smile.

Edited by noponies

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2 hours ago, noponies said:

And a man doesn't have to be anything but a man to be falsely accused. I'm feeling you and nick would both be likely to do so if you thought you could get away with it, for less provocation than a smile.

 

I've lived a long time and never felt the need to assault anyone or accuse anyone else of assault. You, however, seem to have had personal experience with this subject. If you want to recount your experience, go ahead. But leave me out of it. I was debating a topic, not making personal accusations.

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  Making cheap comments about the people we post with won't solve any problems, but just start a bunch of new problems.  So why go there?  Now a women that entices a man very seldom really assaults them, yes they might be used, I wouldn't call it assault.  A man that assaults a women,  both physically & sexually assaults & emotionally assaults them.  A man that is used by a woman, might feel embarrassed, & maybe insulted, but I doubt he feels assaulted. There is a big difference, & you can't begin to compare them!!  PD

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4 minutes ago, Proud Dad said:

  Making cheap comments about the people we post with won't solve any problems, but just start a bunch of new problems.  So why go there?  Now a women that entices a man very seldom really assaults them, yes they might be used, I wouldn't call it assault.  A man that assaults a women,  both physically & sexually assaults & emotionally assaults them.  A man that is used by a woman, might feel embarrassed, & maybe insulted, but I doubt he feels assaulted. There is a big difference, & you can't begin to compare them!!  PD

I think you should go read Heidi's links, then take note of the fact that these 2 "ladies" have been bashing on me for MY opinion every time I express it. Whats that phrase..pot..kettle?  A bit clannish here, aren't we?

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4 hours ago, nick said:

guess you've never been a target of predatory behavior. 

....   you cannot contend that these women "asked for it". "the devil made me do it" or it was "all her fault" disgraces men.  you want to tell me that men cannot control themselves?  is that the message?   oh dear,

What does one "...never been target of predatory behavior." have to do with the other?  A person doesn't have to be a victim of predatory behavior to understand it is unasked for, unwanted and illegal to commit against another unwilling participant.

As for "is that the message? oh dear" .... What did you read that you are inferring someone was telling you "men cannot control themselves"? 
Personally, I feel most men are able to "control themselves" just fine.  I also feel some men make no effort to control themselves and place blame for that despicable behavior on anything/one they can since they refuse to accept responsibility or accountability for their own actions.  That doesn't make anything a 'message' it simply points out a glaring lack in some of society's personal responsibility.

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3 hours ago, noponies said:

I think you should go read Heidi's links, then take note of the fact that these 2 "ladies" have been bashing on me for MY opinion every time I express it. Whats that phrase..pot..kettle?  A bit clannish here, aren't we?

This "lady" would like you to point out where in this thread I "bashed" you. The last post of mine that you took exception to wasn't even a reply to you, but a reference to nick's implying a woman had to be pretty, pleasant and smart to be assaulted. If you think people disagreeing with you on a debate board is "bashing" you, then maybe you should not read the debate threads. And I think you owe PD an apology.

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7 hours ago, noponies said:

I think you should go read Heidi's links, then take note of the fact that these 2 "ladies" have been bashing on me for MY opinion every time I express it. Whats that phrase..pot..kettle?  A bit clannish here, aren't we?

np,  I did read the links that Heidi put up, I never said that women can't be falsely accuse men of rape or any kind of sexual assault,  the big difference is the violence that a woman experiences when raped, compared to a man that is falsely accused, there is no way they can be compared.  How do you see sexual assault among the same sex, that of homosexual community?  There is no doubt there is sexual assault among gay people, especially among those that are in prisons or in any type of locked facility.

  Now to answer your last question, I might be a bit clanish, but I don't see a point in putting others down to try & prove a point, especially someone you only know in cyberspace. JMHO  PD

Edited by Proud Dad

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