Sign in to follow this  
nick

ireland repeals the 8th amendment

Recommended Posts

now women can elect for abortion within the first twelve weeks of pregnancy.

 

I know these boards are deader than dead, but when one person would happen to notice how huge this is for the rights of women great.   irish people flew in from all over the world to vote against the right to lifers.  money flooded in from the Vatican and elsewhere supporting right to life consertives (old men ).   beaten by 750,000 votes.  guess this time the Russians weren't present. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope Ireland's program that offers free prenatal care and free health care through age three remains in effect.  That is really a blessing for women who want a real choice whether or not to keep their babies.  It also shows us how uncivilized we are over here.  We claim we offer a woman a choice but our pregnancy leave, prenatal care, and wellness programs for infants are the worst among so called first world (I hate that term) countries.  That's not really much of a choice, is it?  Democrats pretend they are all for women's rights, but they really just stand for the right to abort.  Not the right to keep.  Republicans just want to pass laws rather than actually help women.  So, yeah, both parties suck.

Off my soapbox.....bye-bye!  (Runs away).  

Edited by little cow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LC, do you have evidence that Dems only stand for right to abort? I don't believe it was the Dems who repeatedly tried to close down Planned Parenthood. Nor is it the Dems who want to end all government sponsored healthcare or the WIC program for expectant and new mothers and the food stamp program. Those and others are Republican initiatives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

   I believe there are people in both parties that support abortion  rights.   While I don't like abortion, I don't like  the folks in DC telling women what to do with their own bodies. I would like to see more  programs for early childhood development.  But I would also like to see sexual active people, take more responsibility, & protect them selves from causing new life, if they don't want it. I don't like it used as a easy out from personal responsibility.  PD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick and Jubal, I don't see things the way you guys do at all.  I am not on one "team" or another when it comes to any political topic, including abortion.  In fact, I don't think the law should be changed.  Don't get me wrong, I am not on your team.  The death of babies makes me terribly sad, as does the situations some women find themselves in which bring them to that decision, but I don't think changing a law is going to help in the US.  What I really want are more real choices for women in bad situations and working/career women should feel comfortable starting a family, if they want to.  Being penalized or ostracized in the workplace is a real problem.  Other similar countries are much more supportive of women having families.  We need to do better.  Don't try to tell me your 'team' is better.  They both fail us.  When we pick teams, we settle for mediocrity.

Politics is the governing of humans by other humans.  It should remain in the realm of the mind, only, to be scrutinized in a logical, calm fashion.  Our conscience should be governed, not by politics, which is cold and unfeeling, but by something much deeper.  When we allow politics to govern our hearts and souls, it becomes our religion.  And politicians become our gods.

Edited by little cow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/2/2018 at 6:07 AM, little cow said:

I hope Ireland's program that offers free prenatal care and free health care through age three remains in effect.  That is really a blessing for women who want a real choice whether or not to keep their babies.  It also shows us how uncivilized we are over here.  We claim we offer a woman a choice but our pregnancy leave, prenatal care, and wellness programs for infants are the worst among so called first world (I hate that term) countries.  That's not really much of a choice, is it?  Democrats pretend they are all for women's rights, but they really just stand for the right to abort.  Not the right to keep.  Republicans just want to pass laws rather than actually help women.  So, yeah, both parties suck.

Off my soapbox.....bye-bye!  (Runs away).  

How do you think a country gets those programs? You can't sit around thinking about what governs your soul and get the things you want. You have to choose which politicians will get you those things. And right now, you aren't going to get it from Republicans. They're busy cutting those very programs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

four years ago a young woman from India who became an irish citizen, married to an irish man and a practicing  dentist, was denied an abortion for the dead fetus inside her on he basis of the eighth amendment.    I guess everybody decided her ensuing death was a reason to come from aroumd the world to end this archaic, misogynistic, male based, senseless, inhumane (not) reasoning.  barbaric.

Edited by nick
no reason

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That doesn't make any sense.  Irish law allows termination of a pregnancy when the mother's life is in danger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LC i’m not on anybody’s “team”, but I do believe nobody has the right to dictate wether a woman must carry to term or not.    This is the most personal of decisions,  so who are (the generic) “we” to pass moral judgements when we’re not walking in her shoes?

 

I am especially against religion being the Basis for what I deem a bizarre and barbaric attitude, especially in the case of the young woman in Ireland who died because doctor’s refused to abort the ALREADY dead fetus she was carrying.   

In my opinion that was manslaughter on the church’s slate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am on a team! I'm on the women's team. If we don't stick up for ourselves, men will continue to pass laws that are not in the best interest of women.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole story about that poor woman is much more complicated.  The hospital did not catch her sepsis in time.  It took five days to figure it out while the fetus was rotting inside.  If they had figured it out sooner, they would have initiated the termination (I believe that is the correct term because it is a major surgery rather than the comparatively casual way abortion is done).  What a horrible way to die!  When a couple is anticipating the birth of a child and everything went so wrong for them.  It's also a terrible medical malpractice case.  I hope the hospitals have changed how they handle pregnant women who come to them in distress. 

You are blaming the Irish church is because of your personal hatred for religion.  The Irish politicians are the ones that pass the laws, based on public opinion.  Now, that opinion has changed.  Probably has a lot to do with money and outside influence.  The Irish have their opinions on various issues, that are inspired by their religion, but that is no reason to call them barbaric.  Do you also call Muslims barbaric because of their even stricter laws regarding women?  

Edited by little cow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How did you come to the conclusion that I “hate” religion?  I applaud anything that provides comfort to people, I just take issue with it dictating the moral high road when it comes to a woman’s sovereignty over her own body.  Or to a male or female baby.  Let’s talk circumcision shall we?  Based on archaic reasons stemming from living in the desert under trying hygienic circumstances.  Yes I do have objections to practices under Judaism and Islam that compromise the dignity of men and women both.  I’m an equal opportunity religion critic.

 

clearly you did not follow the tragic and preventable death of that young woman who died in “real time”.  Everyone was aware of the situation—I  was reading everyday about her and her husband pleading with the doctors.  It wasn’t malpractice it was manslaughter.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Protecting human dignity is very much what my church is all about.  Every human: immigrant, gay, Muslim, homeless, unborn, etc...Circumcision is not required nor even encouraged.  We obviously disagree where one life overlaps another life.  But, again, I don't see a change in laws as effective.  Provide other ways out and support pregnant women in bad situations, so women don't feel forced into abortion.  Our Church runs homes for pregnant women that help them find jobs and get back on their feet after they have their babies.  Who provides a way for those who have had abortions to come to terms with it and forgive themselves (yes, there are women who are tortured by this choice)?  Certainly not any public entity because of stupid politics.  A woman's mental health means nothing to politicians.  There is no waiting period or counseling provided in the US, like there is in Europe.  Our Church offers recovery counseling, no matter how many years have passed (Rachel's Vineyard).  At least they are doing something to help people who still mourn.

Theology of the Body was a book written by a pope many years ago.  The concepts of this are taught to middle school and high school aged children to provide an alternative message to all the images of women (and men less frequently) shown in degrading ways that the media bombards us all with.  Make young women feel like they matter and their bodies are, indeed, their own, not something to be exploited by others.   I see our Church standing up for human dignity, time and again, via their most public figure: Pope Francis.  So, yes, I see things far differently than you do.  My concepts of human dignity are far different than yours.  And, yet, you call me barbaric.

Edited by little cow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

when did this topic become about you and your church?  it started about the eighth amendment in Ireland, an overwhelmingly catholic country where women wanting to terminate pregnancies had to fly elsewhere to be able to terminate unwanted pregnancies.    where a court had to determine whether a pregnant 13 year old girl who had been raped had the right to terminate the pregnancy or become a ten alarm suicide risk.  yes, that for me is barbaric, backward and very much reminiscent of a patriarchal state.   

Pope Francis is indeed a breath of fresh air in the Catholic domain, yet he still vehemently rejects any form of birth control in third world countries, even in places like Uganda and Ethiopia where is AIDS is rampant and meds too expensive.   of course that's also where there trying to replete their diminishing congregations in Europe and North America.

I know women who  chose to terminate their pregnancies.  none of them felt "forced", they sought professional counselling before they made the most of personal decisions, and none of them regret it because they feel they methodically looked at all the reasonable choices before concluding the best path for them to follow.  and i'm not generalizing as you did, every path is individual.

i'm happy for you that you have a church that walks the walk and doesn't just talk the talk.  and by the way, Saudia Arabia, the only country world that has a ban on women driving based on some kind of loose interpretation of the Koran, has lifted it.    that's as huge as what's happening in Ireland. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

   Abortion is a moral issue that tends to divide people rather than brings them together. Very little is ever is ever changed when 2 different sides always oppose each other, rather than trying to work together to solve a problem. I can tell you I don't like abortion, but it can be a necessary evil. Have no problem with abortion in rape cases, or or any kind of sexual abuse situations.  But I do have a problem with people hoping into bed together, & having unprotected sex, just because they got caught up in the heat of the moment. With all the birth control that is available these days. Men should take responsibility as much as women. I just want people take responsibility for their actions a head of time, & not take the easy way out later. But morality is tossed by the way side, & if it feels good do it, nothing to do with the church or government, very much has to do with taking responsibility for our actions. I have no problem with abortion being provided for any kind of sexual abuse, as any victim, didn't ask, or could control what happened to them. I know there abortions can also become medically necessary, for different reasons.  But most could be avoided, if people would stop & think before they act.  PD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crawl back into your hole, nick. I don't think anyone wants you here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t live in a hole and my place of residence is irrelevant to this topic.

 

just heard on BBC radio that there’s been a UK higher court ruling that the abortion ban in Northern Ireland  (only part of Ireland that still is part of England because they DON’T want to be Catholic) violates the EU charter on human rights.   Every step forward counts.  

Edited by nick
Typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, little cow said:

My church is the same as the one in Ireland and everywhere else.  The Catholic Church is worldwide.  

I was raised Catholic in Africa and Thailand, exposed to all kinds of religious or pagan beliefs.  Or nonbelievers.  In not one single denomination has there been such a rampant epidemic of pedophilia and subsequent coverups among leaders of the church!!!.  That’s NOT what I call supportive of anyone’s rights.  Mother Teresa waltzing around Calcutta for years telling poor, desperate souls that their abject misery was a “gift from God” makes me want to regurgitate.

didn’t realize it was Catholicism you were applauding—I take it all back.  They even beat the GOP and the Liberterians for being anti-women’s rights and anybody who makes for “easy pickings” because they think they can hide behind the “holier than thou” shield.

 

and btw, the Vatican, one of the wealthiest entities on the planet, should bloody well start having to pay taxes just like everyone else.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, little cow said:

My church is the same as the one in Ireland and everywhere else.  The Catholic Church is worldwide.  

Sorry, that's just not true. The Church is the parish and the diocese. I went to Catholic schools from the first grade up through college and grad school. The Catholic Church and I parted ways when the child abuse began to become public. How many lives did the Church ruin by harboring and protecting those priests? How many young girls in Ireland were forced into maternity homes run by the Catholic Church in Ireland. How much money did the Church make by selling their babies to couples elsewhere? You need to accept the fact that no church is perfect because they're all run by human beings. You and your fellow parishioners make up the Catholic Church. As long as you stay on top of what your parish priest and diocese are doing, your parish can be the wonderful place you say it is. But you can't generalize about every parish and diocese and indeed, about the Catholic Church worldwide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PD, your thinking is rational, as always. But the Catholic Church has banned birth control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, farah said:

Crawl back into your hole, nick. I don't think anyone wants you here.

I LIKE you! :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again topic irrelevant.  Who seeks to be liked constantly get’s nothing done.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m really happy as I mentioned in the opening post that a single person noticed this thread.    Thank you ALL for contributing.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jubal said:

PD, your thinking is rational, as always. But the Catholic Church has banned birth control.

     I think reasonable thinking Catholics still use birth control, the whole Evangelical movement has put a damper on birth control. It seems to many people that control themselves, want to control the world. Commonsense has gone by the wayside, & stupidity is now running rampant. PD

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are many that choose Natural Family Planning instead.

The hierarchy of the Catholic Church is priest, bishop, pope.  Keeps it simple.  There is a consulate in DC (nuncio) that represents the US in discussions with the Vatican. When we travel, we could attend mass in any country and recieve the Eucharist.  Universal church.  

Leaving the church because of scandal elsewhere is a common excuse, but, what does that have to do with your priest or your parish?  The sense of community is so strong and the sacraments are so important.  I couldn't give them up.  I also know about the steps taken to protect children.  They were long overdue and entirely appropriate (I teach catechism and sub at a Catholic school).  Think of all the institutions one would have to abandon because of evil individuals within.  There wouldn't be any left!  I went to public school and two of my teachers were pedophiles.  By your logic, I should have quit school in the 3rd grade.

Anyway, I think I am in the way here as it appears to be a Catholic bashing party.  Peace.

Edited by little cow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LC,  I think every religion has had to deal with perverted people on some level, be it pastors that have affairs with members of the flocks, or even  young children in a youth group.  I don't think the Catholic Church, has the market cornered the misdeeds of people that represent the Church. It is a world wide religion, so anything big gets much more exposure, & greater chance for condemnation.  Truth is all religions have their hypocrites, & another reason people arn't active members of any church like the past generations have been.  I can't  judge any religion just because of rotten apples that give Churches  & religion a bad name.  I go a evangelical Church,  & I don't think much of both Franklin Graham & Jerry Falwell jr, pushing member ship to support a man in the White House, that clearly has poor morals.  So there is aloot of blame to go around.  PD

Edited by Proud Dad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, little cow said:

There are many that choose Natural Family Planning instead.

The hierarchy of the Catholic Church is priest, bishop, pope.  Keeps it simple.  There is a consulate in DC (nuncio) that represents the US in discussions with the Vatican. When we travel, we could attend mass in any country and recieve the Eucharist.  Universal church.  

Leaving the church because of scandal elsewhere is a common excuse, but, what does that have to do with your priest or your parish?  The sense of community is so strong and the sacraments are so important.  I couldn't give them up.  I also know about the steps taken to protect children.  They were long overdue and entirely appropriate (I teach catechism and sub at a Catholic school).  Think of all the institutions one would have to abandon because of evil individuals within.  There wouldn't be any left!  I went to public school and two of my teachers were pedophiles.  By your logic, I should have quit school in the 3rd grade.

Anyway, I think I am in the way here as it appears to be a Catholic bashing party.  Peace.

You might feel differently if one of the abused were you or a family member.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was not intended to be a religion bashing thread, rather a discussion of the role it often plays in repressing a woman’s right to make her health choices, vote, drive, take your pick from a myriad of choices, and how senseless and frankly patriarchal it is.   I’m happy to see that while the uphill myth of Sisyphus style struggle continues progress is being made in many parts of the world.  

I respect people who embrace their religion wholly, but I don’t respect anyone who takes the moral high ground because of it and I have a real problem who those who try to subjugate others to their beliefs.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this