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Goin - overbridled and avoiding the bit

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---"I had all but forgotten about it until I had a horse sent to me that would sell out with his chin on his chest. You could not even get his head pulled around with one rein to take his head away from him. Well, the wire gag 'fixed' that and in the process, his head came back up with very little pressure. In a week or so, I went to a little shank bit with gag action and eventually weaned him from that, too.

As soon as I got his nose up, he started using his hind end and he started lifting his shoulders and got off of his front end. I had not even realized just how badly he rode in all other aspects because the chin on his chest problem dwarfed everything else. It had fouled up everything.

So, if you have tried everything else, you might try a ring gag bit."---

Very, very interesting.

I have never seen a horse go well with a gag bit, a true snaffle, reins attached to side cheeks that slip thru holes and go over the poll.

Some use them jumping or barrel racing and you can tell from far away which horse has one, they fight their heads in a special way that is unmistakable.

Those were not around when I was training jumping horses, so don't have direct experience with them, but have seen them used ocassionally jumping in the later years and in other venues.

I have always thought they were useless, wondering why anyone would use them, since they were not working, obviously, but now that explanation by Cheri makes sense, that, what those gag bitted horses travel like, bad as it is, may be better than the way they would go without that gag bit, if the problem they have is being behind the bit.

That gag bit definitely will put them above the bit and fighting their heads, if used with any but the lightest touch and in competitions like jumping and barrel racing, some times the lightest touch is not the same as when things are not tight and there are times in competition that you do have to take a harder hold than you normally would.

So, in that case, maybe they do have a purpuse for some, to get them having to respond to a bit that can't be ignored, until you can get that horse retrained, as Cheri so well explains.

[ 07-19-2006, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Merry ]

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---"I had all but forgotten about it until I had a horse sent to me that would sell out with his chin on his chest. You could not even get his head pulled around with one rein to take his head away from him. Well, the wire gag 'fixed' that and in the process, his head came back up with very little pressure. In a week or so, I went to a little shank bit with gag action and eventually weaned him from that, too.

As soon as I got his nose up, he started using his hind end and he started lifting his shoulders and got off of his front end. I had not even realized just how badly he rode in all other aspects because the chin on his chest problem dwarfed everything else. It had fouled up everything.

So, if you have tried everything else, you might try a ring gag bit."---

Very, very interesting.

I have never seen a horse go well with a gag bit, a true snaffle, reins attached to side cheeks that slip thru holes and go over the poll.

Some use them jumping or barrel racing and you can tell from far away which horse has one, they fight their heads in a special way that is unmistakable.

Those were not around when I was training jumping horses, so don't have direct experience with them, but have seen them used ocassionally jumping in the later years and in other venues.

I have always thought they were useless, wondering why anyone would use them, since they were not working, obviously, but now that explanation by Cheri makes sense, that, what those gag bitted horses travel like, bad as it is, may be better than the way they would go without that gag bit, if the problem they have is being behind the bit.

That gag bit definitely will put them above the bit and fighting their heads, if used with any but the lightest touch and in competitions like jumping and barrel racing, some times the lightest touch is not the same as when things are not tight and there are times in competition that you do have to take a harder hold than you normally would.

So, in that case, maybe they do have a purpuse for some, to get them having to respond to a bit that can't be ignored, until you can get that horse retrained, as Cheri so well explains.

[ 07-19-2006, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Merry ]

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HCIT, How sweet of you to worry so about me. [Huggy] Its only because of you that I return to say why I deleted the first thread where I asked advice about a colt who's tucking his chin to his chest before engaging his feet.

Truth be told, I was a little taken aback by the "tone" of Smilie's post. [Embarrassed][Embarrassed]

Granted tone cannot be assumed in written (typed) text, But certain words and certain phrases cannot be mistaken other than plain condesending.

In her eyes, I am the ultimate yahoo who has ridden her gelding with the "tool of death" the dreaded copper twisted wire snaffle, with iron hands bouncing along my merry way jerking and snatching on him all the while.

Nothing could be farther from the truth, if anything I'm the one being told non stop i'm to forgiving of my horses. I ALWAYS give them the benefit of the doubt...I ALWAYS asume I did not communicate my wishes and need to ask another way before blaming anything on the horse.

But she doesn't know me and how could she- this is an internet world we all visit. But in not knowing me-maybe she could have been a little less judgemental in assuming I made this colt the way he is, that I resorted to this "harsh" bit with plans of causing him pain and fear to get my demands met.

I find that sometimes we overlook or forget some of the most basic of things...that's why I asked the question I did. I've learned alot from most of the people on here. I think most, however successful in the horse world they are, offer their advice in hope of bettering the lives of the horses and people they touch. They offer that advice, not knowing the skill level of the people involved. Most I think realize that with living breathing animals, you can never stop learning. And horses will humble a person quicker than anything out there. i showed pleasure (western and english), halter, Eq, working hunter, showmanship, etc...at all levels imaginable. But that was a few years ago and now I mostly have barrel and roping horses. It flatters me to this day when people ASK for my help, as i'm always refering to myself as the student and don't feel like tooting my own horn.

I attended a QH show a few weeks ago to watch a friend and get points on my Jr horse. I decided to get back into showing again...I'm sure i'll need a large tune up as styles have changed a bit since i was in the ring. So i came here again reading some old threads hoping to re-energize the pleasure training part of my brain, and decided to post about this colt I just bought. I'm not a rich girl, so mostly I accuire horses with holes and try to bring them out of it. I've actually only had 2 "finished when i bought em" horses in my life. 1 Pleasure and 1 barrel horse. Both those horses were bought by my parents who were smart enough to know to start with a solid canpaigner to teach me, i then went on to train many successful horses bought by all levels of riders. I'm not a pro trainer, never will be. I usually dabble with one at a time and if things get right I sell and try again. I'm proud to say I've revamped horses that were burnt to a crisp and gave them back a useful career. i guess those horses and moments are my proudest, taking something ready to be thrown away and earning the trust and going back to kick butt! IMO harder and more challenging than taking a 2yo clean slate, but i enjoy a challange.

And just for kicks... i tried Smilies advice last night. In asking for a back up, applied light rein pressure and he again tucked head. i started bumping him with my legs, adn he walked forward.

Not sure if that was the desired response for Smilie, but it wasn't what i was asking for, so i went on to work on other things instead for right now. Smilie said on one other of her posts about this same problem that " he has no choice but to back" Obviously that's not true. He doesn't sull up, he doesn't run off. I'm just looking for foot movement BEFORE we teck the chin.

*sigh* Could it be that I'm reading this all wrong and being overly sensative? Yes I'll admit that. Ashley's death has affected every avenue of my life-Lord how could it not?

And in my quest to be a happier person, I chose to delete the thread, rather than engage and confront. I left HC because of all the fighting and "better than you" people who seem to set up camp here lately. I was "invited" back to the barrel board in hopes of reclaiming it back to a useful, fun place, the place it used to be. I popped back in over here, and felt like i was being scolded by my elementary school principal. I have enough drama and sorrow in my life right now, i don't need to be battered here. Like I said-probably my fault...probably me taking things to seriously, but the way i read it sure didn't make me want to go out and work with my colt.

Does anyone remember the good times we had with that thread i started way back when and we all were left laughing so hard about mini walkaloosa's and tarps and chocolate and all that? ahh, those were the good old days. [Wink]

HCIT, glad things are working out for you at your new place. I'd love to come visit and see it sometime. I've been drafted by the local 4H district to help with some of the more beginner kids, and have been really busy working with them, but I love to hear from you and hope you'll continue to keep in touch. If you get back to ridding much and to somewhere i might be please give me a shout. my cell is still the same. [Huggy]

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HCIT, How sweet of you to worry so about me. [Huggy] Its only because of you that I return to say why I deleted the first thread where I asked advice about a colt who's tucking his chin to his chest before engaging his feet.

Truth be told, I was a little taken aback by the "tone" of Smilie's post. [Embarrassed][Embarrassed]

Granted tone cannot be assumed in written (typed) text, But certain words and certain phrases cannot be mistaken other than plain condesending.

In her eyes, I am the ultimate yahoo who has ridden her gelding with the "tool of death" the dreaded copper twisted wire snaffle, with iron hands bouncing along my merry way jerking and snatching on him all the while.

Nothing could be farther from the truth, if anything I'm the one being told non stop i'm to forgiving of my horses. I ALWAYS give them the benefit of the doubt...I ALWAYS asume I did not communicate my wishes and need to ask another way before blaming anything on the horse.

But she doesn't know me and how could she- this is an internet world we all visit. But in not knowing me-maybe she could have been a little less judgemental in assuming I made this colt the way he is, that I resorted to this "harsh" bit with plans of causing him pain and fear to get my demands met.

I find that sometimes we overlook or forget some of the most basic of things...that's why I asked the question I did. I've learned alot from most of the people on here. I think most, however successful in the horse world they are, offer their advice in hope of bettering the lives of the horses and people they touch. They offer that advice, not knowing the skill level of the people involved. Most I think realize that with living breathing animals, you can never stop learning. And horses will humble a person quicker than anything out there. i showed pleasure (western and english), halter, Eq, working hunter, showmanship, etc...at all levels imaginable. But that was a few years ago and now I mostly have barrel and roping horses. It flatters me to this day when people ASK for my help, as i'm always refering to myself as the student and don't feel like tooting my own horn.

I attended a QH show a few weeks ago to watch a friend and get points on my Jr horse. I decided to get back into showing again...I'm sure i'll need a large tune up as styles have changed a bit since i was in the ring. So i came here again reading some old threads hoping to re-energize the pleasure training part of my brain, and decided to post about this colt I just bought. I'm not a rich girl, so mostly I accuire horses with holes and try to bring them out of it. I've actually only had 2 "finished when i bought em" horses in my life. 1 Pleasure and 1 barrel horse. Both those horses were bought by my parents who were smart enough to know to start with a solid canpaigner to teach me, i then went on to train many successful horses bought by all levels of riders. I'm not a pro trainer, never will be. I usually dabble with one at a time and if things get right I sell and try again. I'm proud to say I've revamped horses that were burnt to a crisp and gave them back a useful career. i guess those horses and moments are my proudest, taking something ready to be thrown away and earning the trust and going back to kick butt! IMO harder and more challenging than taking a 2yo clean slate, but i enjoy a challange.

And just for kicks... i tried Smilies advice last night. In asking for a back up, applied light rein pressure and he again tucked head. i started bumping him with my legs, adn he walked forward.

Not sure if that was the desired response for Smilie, but it wasn't what i was asking for, so i went on to work on other things instead for right now. Smilie said on one other of her posts about this same problem that " he has no choice but to back" Obviously that's not true. He doesn't sull up, he doesn't run off. I'm just looking for foot movement BEFORE we teck the chin.

*sigh* Could it be that I'm reading this all wrong and being overly sensative? Yes I'll admit that. Ashley's death has affected every avenue of my life-Lord how could it not?

And in my quest to be a happier person, I chose to delete the thread, rather than engage and confront. I left HC because of all the fighting and "better than you" people who seem to set up camp here lately. I was "invited" back to the barrel board in hopes of reclaiming it back to a useful, fun place, the place it used to be. I popped back in over here, and felt like i was being scolded by my elementary school principal. I have enough drama and sorrow in my life right now, i don't need to be battered here. Like I said-probably my fault...probably me taking things to seriously, but the way i read it sure didn't make me want to go out and work with my colt.

Does anyone remember the good times we had with that thread i started way back when and we all were left laughing so hard about mini walkaloosa's and tarps and chocolate and all that? ahh, those were the good old days. [Wink]

HCIT, glad things are working out for you at your new place. I'd love to come visit and see it sometime. I've been drafted by the local 4H district to help with some of the more beginner kids, and have been really busy working with them, but I love to hear from you and hope you'll continue to keep in touch. If you get back to ridding much and to somewhere i might be please give me a shout. my cell is still the same. [Huggy]

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Hi Goin! Good to see you. I was waiting until you got back and I'm glad too see you have come.

I, too, have unfortunately come across horses that were overbridled. One was like that, he knew if he stuck his chin to his chest he could do whatever he wanted. Not a good feeling, I totally empahize with you.

The way I have been able to deal with it is by basically throwing away contact and then asking the horse to do something complicated, like numerous rollbacks into the fence, right in a row. Let him know how it is to have to really make sure he has his feet in the right place and forget about putting his head somewhere. A horse that tucks it's chin to it's chest is too slow...he has to start connecting reins with back feet if you have good timing in this.

So, pick up a long trot or a canter, make a pocket with your fence-side leg, and then sit, say woah, and double him into the fence with your fence side rein. Forget outside rein. Just tip his nose enough to initate the turn. The fence will do the rest. If he goes to tuck his chin, take that inside hand and bump him straight up, very quickly, just one sharp bump and then release. Then...RIDE him out of the turn, HARD! Go a couple of strides, get lined out and do it again the other way.

If you have access to cattle or a mechanical cow (and it is easy to make one out of a stationary bicycle and a clothesline), this helps too, because it will give him something to focus on and he will start understanding he can't be athletic and do the things you are asking him to do with his head to his chest.

I think you are a barrel racer, right? I suppose barrels and poles are the same way. A horse can't be athletic in that position (I don't know why, personally anyone would want their horse's head that bridled up, or want, like you said, for the chin to tuck when the reins are engaged. When I engage reins, I want that horse's hind end to do something!!! But that is another story).

I haven't personally tried this but visualizing it in my head, I could see how you could modify this exercise while weaving through poles, get him off your leg, and then lift UP sharply with that inside rein, alternating through the poles.

Basically, the concept is give him a job that will help him start to understand that when you pick up a rein, he needs to follow his nose and use his body to do what you ask, because he can't do it the other way.

If you have good timing and feel, you can fix him. The hard part about these kind of horses is that it is so human to go to the muscle when things start going wrong, and with this type of horse, you absolutely cannot go to the muscle.

I had one overbridled horse like that, and I took to riding him in a halter, not so much for him as for me, to remind myself not to pull on him, ever! BTW, I think you may have seen pics of him on here, he is the gray stud, Pablo.

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Hi Goin! Good to see you. I was waiting until you got back and I'm glad too see you have come.

I, too, have unfortunately come across horses that were overbridled. One was like that, he knew if he stuck his chin to his chest he could do whatever he wanted. Not a good feeling, I totally empahize with you.

The way I have been able to deal with it is by basically throwing away contact and then asking the horse to do something complicated, like numerous rollbacks into the fence, right in a row. Let him know how it is to have to really make sure he has his feet in the right place and forget about putting his head somewhere. A horse that tucks it's chin to it's chest is too slow...he has to start connecting reins with back feet if you have good timing in this.

So, pick up a long trot or a canter, make a pocket with your fence-side leg, and then sit, say woah, and double him into the fence with your fence side rein. Forget outside rein. Just tip his nose enough to initate the turn. The fence will do the rest. If he goes to tuck his chin, take that inside hand and bump him straight up, very quickly, just one sharp bump and then release. Then...RIDE him out of the turn, HARD! Go a couple of strides, get lined out and do it again the other way.

If you have access to cattle or a mechanical cow (and it is easy to make one out of a stationary bicycle and a clothesline), this helps too, because it will give him something to focus on and he will start understanding he can't be athletic and do the things you are asking him to do with his head to his chest.

I think you are a barrel racer, right? I suppose barrels and poles are the same way. A horse can't be athletic in that position (I don't know why, personally anyone would want their horse's head that bridled up, or want, like you said, for the chin to tuck when the reins are engaged. When I engage reins, I want that horse's hind end to do something!!! But that is another story).

I haven't personally tried this but visualizing it in my head, I could see how you could modify this exercise while weaving through poles, get him off your leg, and then lift UP sharply with that inside rein, alternating through the poles.

Basically, the concept is give him a job that will help him start to understand that when you pick up a rein, he needs to follow his nose and use his body to do what you ask, because he can't do it the other way.

If you have good timing and feel, you can fix him. The hard part about these kind of horses is that it is so human to go to the muscle when things start going wrong, and with this type of horse, you absolutely cannot go to the muscle.

I had one overbridled horse like that, and I took to riding him in a halter, not so much for him as for me, to remind myself not to pull on him, ever! BTW, I think you may have seen pics of him on here, he is the gray stud, Pablo.

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Hi BuddyRoo

I agree with the driving foreward, as I already posted by using lots of leg.

I do take exception to the statement that see sawing is used to lower the head of a western pleasure horse-not so. The head carriage is achieved by first of all chosing a horse that already travels naturally with a level top line, as he is built that way. You then develope body control, implusion and shoulder control. The horse is rewarded with a loose rein when he carries himself in frame. Getting behind the bit is a serious fault , with face on the verticle, or nose slightly in front of it as being desired

I never ever see saw the mouth of my horse.

A twisted wire is used for a short term to get a horse backed off the bit, if he has become heavy in a snaffle, thus not a choise for a horse that is evading the bit

Backed off the bit is not the same as behind the bit. A horse is backed off the bit when he respects the bit barrier by working off his hind end, being light on the forehand, instead of leaning into your hands and heavy on the forehand

Since I don't train outside horses, nor buy horses that have been started by others, I never needed to fix this vise, just know how to prevent it from occurring in the first place

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Hi BuddyRoo

I agree with the driving foreward, as I already posted by using lots of leg.

I do take exception to the statement that see sawing is used to lower the head of a western pleasure horse-not so. The head carriage is achieved by first of all chosing a horse that already travels naturally with a level top line, as he is built that way. You then develope body control, implusion and shoulder control. The horse is rewarded with a loose rein when he carries himself in frame. Getting behind the bit is a serious fault , with face on the verticle, or nose slightly in front of it as being desired

I never ever see saw the mouth of my horse.

A twisted wire is used for a short term to get a horse backed off the bit, if he has become heavy in a snaffle, thus not a choise for a horse that is evading the bit

Backed off the bit is not the same as behind the bit. A horse is backed off the bit when he respects the bit barrier by working off his hind end, being light on the forehand, instead of leaning into your hands and heavy on the forehand

Since I don't train outside horses, nor buy horses that have been started by others, I never needed to fix this vise, just know how to prevent it from occurring in the first place

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Goin, I washed off your sucker to give to you in case you came back. [smiley Wavey]

Sorry, I missed you today, we were moving a couple more cows to the new place and hauling water to the leased pasture since the tank has all but dried up. We still haven't moved any horses yet mainly because it is too stinking hot to fix fence. I keep meaning to take the camera to take pictures but always seem to forget in the chaos of loading up to go.

Honestly, it is a great place and we can't wait to ride when we get the horses moved. I'll be expecting you for a visit and we'll have some steaks and iced tea (the Long Island kind [Wink] )

Darn, I've got to go grocery shopping now. I sure hope you got some tips to try on your problem baby. Thanks to everyone for the replies! [Wink]

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Goin, I washed off your sucker to give to you in case you came back. [smiley Wavey]

Sorry, I missed you today, we were moving a couple more cows to the new place and hauling water to the leased pasture since the tank has all but dried up. We still haven't moved any horses yet mainly because it is too stinking hot to fix fence. I keep meaning to take the camera to take pictures but always seem to forget in the chaos of loading up to go.

Honestly, it is a great place and we can't wait to ride when we get the horses moved. I'll be expecting you for a visit and we'll have some steaks and iced tea (the Long Island kind [Wink] )

Darn, I've got to go grocery shopping now. I sure hope you got some tips to try on your problem baby. Thanks to everyone for the replies! [Wink]

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Smilie...I think you missed my point...my point was that at the lower levels, a lot of folks training WP horses are NOT looking at overall carriage (ie: horse under himself, rounded, nice frame resulting in proper head set) rather, they see saw to get the head down because it's the only part of the horse they're SEEING.

Not the correct way to do it. But it is a pattern I see nonetheless.

And, it has the propensity to create a horse that is perpetually behind the vertical at the slightest bit of contact...

ETA: I don't think that the problem here is "HELP, I'VE CREATED A BTV HORSE!" Rather, it's "I've acquired a BTV horse, now what?"

I realize this is simply a public forum, but perhaps you could read thoroughly before responding. I just re-read my post and am pretty confused about how you would get that I think that see-sawing is "the way" to do it??? Or that I was doing anything other than agreeing with your point???

Simpler, less harsh bit. Soft hands. Forward motion....seems like the standard reply here...

[ 07-19-2006, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: BuddyRooShmancyNShy ]

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Smilie...I think you missed my point...my point was that at the lower levels, a lot of folks training WP horses are NOT looking at overall carriage (ie: horse under himself, rounded, nice frame resulting in proper head set) rather, they see saw to get the head down because it's the only part of the horse they're SEEING.

Not the correct way to do it. But it is a pattern I see nonetheless.

And, it has the propensity to create a horse that is perpetually behind the vertical at the slightest bit of contact...

ETA: I don't think that the problem here is "HELP, I'VE CREATED A BTV HORSE!" Rather, it's "I've acquired a BTV horse, now what?"

I realize this is simply a public forum, but perhaps you could read thoroughly before responding. I just re-read my post and am pretty confused about how you would get that I think that see-sawing is "the way" to do it??? Or that I was doing anything other than agreeing with your point???

Simpler, less harsh bit. Soft hands. Forward motion....seems like the standard reply here...

[ 07-19-2006, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: BuddyRooShmancyNShy ]

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Hmmmm, I guess I don't go to the same AQHA shows as Smilie. Well, I go to the same ones as Bob Avila, Al Dunning, Doug Williamson, to name a few. I don't know any big name Pleasure trainers but the Pleasure classes at the shows are usually pretty big. I've got tons of pictures (thanks to HolyJeezers...she took 615 pictures at the last show, and some video) of reiners pulling their horses to a stop or stopping "on contact" and more pictures and more video of Pleasure people constantly see sawing.

It's funny that people on here constantly say that reiners aren't overbridled and Pleasure people don't see saw. I don't know what planet you are on or what shows you go to but every show I see that is how it is.

I'm not saying it's good bad or indifferent. I AM NOT MAKING ANY SORT OF VALUE JUDGEMENT. I am just saying how it is.

I see lots of cutters jerking and spurring and kicking their horses in the shoulders too. (and I also acknowledge the fact that there are lots of good cutters, including my trainer, that don't do that, just as there are good reiners who can achieve the ideal of a beautiful stop on a loose rein...Shawn Flarida and Todd Bergen come to mind...actually, I was just up at the Klamath Bridle Horse Spectacular and Todd was one of the few I saw stopping on a loose rein.) I'm sure there are lots of good Pleasure people. My trainer's sister trains Pleasure horses and was reserve champion at the last three Futurities she went to. Her horses move well and aren't overbridled or moving like they are crippled. But that doesn't change the fact that every time I go to a show there are lots of ones that are. I don't know if they win or not, but they are there. The last show I went to, and watched the reining, the winner in the Amateur was not overbridled, but the Reserve Champion definitely was. Same with the Sr. Reining.

I just don't know why people keep insisting on describing this make believe fantasy world where everyone rides perfectly all the time and everything is rainbows and butterflies. It is kind of like stating over and over that NO the sky is GREEN! The sky is GREEN! I am telling you, THE SKY IS GREEN!

I go to a show almost every weekend and that is how it is. They are big shows, not dinky shows. I am leaving for another four day huge AQHA show tonight.

And if you get nice horses to ride that you make from the beginning and don't have to worry about fixing someone else's mistakes, then good for you. It still doesn't help Goin 9-0 with her problem that came from someone else. Spout off all the theory you want; it doesn't help her; it just makes you appear "holier than thou." And don't think I'm making a value judgement against you, either, as I have been called "holier than thou" a few times on here myself, and am often found spouting off theory.

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Hmmmm, I guess I don't go to the same AQHA shows as Smilie. Well, I go to the same ones as Bob Avila, Al Dunning, Doug Williamson, to name a few. I don't know any big name Pleasure trainers but the Pleasure classes at the shows are usually pretty big. I've got tons of pictures (thanks to HolyJeezers...she took 615 pictures at the last show, and some video) of reiners pulling their horses to a stop or stopping "on contact" and more pictures and more video of Pleasure people constantly see sawing.

It's funny that people on here constantly say that reiners aren't overbridled and Pleasure people don't see saw. I don't know what planet you are on or what shows you go to but every show I see that is how it is.

I'm not saying it's good bad or indifferent. I AM NOT MAKING ANY SORT OF VALUE JUDGEMENT. I am just saying how it is.

I see lots of cutters jerking and spurring and kicking their horses in the shoulders too. (and I also acknowledge the fact that there are lots of good cutters, including my trainer, that don't do that, just as there are good reiners who can achieve the ideal of a beautiful stop on a loose rein...Shawn Flarida and Todd Bergen come to mind...actually, I was just up at the Klamath Bridle Horse Spectacular and Todd was one of the few I saw stopping on a loose rein.) I'm sure there are lots of good Pleasure people. My trainer's sister trains Pleasure horses and was reserve champion at the last three Futurities she went to. Her horses move well and aren't overbridled or moving like they are crippled. But that doesn't change the fact that every time I go to a show there are lots of ones that are. I don't know if they win or not, but they are there. The last show I went to, and watched the reining, the winner in the Amateur was not overbridled, but the Reserve Champion definitely was. Same with the Sr. Reining.

I just don't know why people keep insisting on describing this make believe fantasy world where everyone rides perfectly all the time and everything is rainbows and butterflies. It is kind of like stating over and over that NO the sky is GREEN! The sky is GREEN! I am telling you, THE SKY IS GREEN!

I go to a show almost every weekend and that is how it is. They are big shows, not dinky shows. I am leaving for another four day huge AQHA show tonight.

And if you get nice horses to ride that you make from the beginning and don't have to worry about fixing someone else's mistakes, then good for you. It still doesn't help Goin 9-0 with her problem that came from someone else. Spout off all the theory you want; it doesn't help her; it just makes you appear "holier than thou." And don't think I'm making a value judgement against you, either, as I have been called "holier than thou" a few times on here myself, and am often found spouting off theory.

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See Sawing only encourages horses to evade the bit, it teaches them to 'see saw'their heads, then you have a real problem!

What I would do with this horse, and what my trainer has done for other horses that do this, is...ride in a rope halter (just for control)and just ask the horse to go forward! Everytime she puts her head btv-give her some leg and ask her to move! It will take a while to fix this problem, but if there's nothing to evade, she can't evade it! [Wink]

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See Sawing only encourages horses to evade the bit, it teaches them to 'see saw'their heads, then you have a real problem!

What I would do with this horse, and what my trainer has done for other horses that do this, is...ride in a rope halter (just for control)and just ask the horse to go forward! Everytime she puts her head btv-give her some leg and ask her to move! It will take a while to fix this problem, but if there's nothing to evade, she can't evade it! [Wink]

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---"What I would do with this horse, and what my trainer has done for other horses that do this, is...ride in a rope halter (just for control)and just ask the horse to go forward! Everytime she puts her head btv-give her some leg and ask her to move! It will take a while to fix this problem, but if there's nothing to evade, she can't evade it!"---

That is what we do, but with a loose rein with our D ring snaffle, riding long and low for long time.

That is because I didn't have the western ways, like Cutter explains, of working a horse over it's hind end to that extent, on the fence.

I learned that later and by then, I was used to the long and low to get a horse over being noodely and behind the bit, as to me so many western horses are, that have very little true iimpulsion and proper gaits.

I would guess that it is about concepts.

Seems that some reading here already think their horses are traveling right.

But, many riders don't pick up on the reins until they need to communicate and then their horses either are over the bit, resisting that contact or behind the bit, giving faster than the rider can achieve contact.

That rider then feels that, if resisting, a tie down will help, or a different bit, etc.

Or the horse is very nice and giving, but the rider doesn't realize that it is evading the contact and so behind the bit, rather than connecting thru that feel of the rein's weight and movement to it's body.

As a side note, contact can be acheived on a loose rein and still have a horse responding well, or behind the bit, if that contact is not corresponding to a horse engaging.

We can see that here some times when a picture is posted and how a horse is really going is shown. Of course, at times it is only that one frame the horse happens to be traveling like that, the next one may have shown a different way of going, but that the poster shows those specific pictures without knowing different, that shows that they are not aware.

That is why to have an experienced person on the ground, at least from time to time, to check our progress, is something all should try for.

Even the riders at the top of their game do it, they know that to see what we are doing while riding, by an experienced eye, is an important complement to what it feels like when on the horse.

---"Here ya go , the proper way to get forward movement - use a carrot stick!"---

-

Love that carrot stick! [Yay]

I will admit that I tried that on a donkey and it didn't work.

Must have been a faulty technique on my part then, since I was a little kid.

Many years later, after I was a horse trainer, I tried it again on a shetland pony and it still didn't work.

Guess that it was not the right pony for that technique, or I should have been under the eye of an experienced trainer, that could have shown me how to do it properly. [ROTFL]

[ 07-20-2006, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Merry ]

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---"What I would do with this horse, and what my trainer has done for other horses that do this, is...ride in a rope halter (just for control)and just ask the horse to go forward! Everytime she puts her head btv-give her some leg and ask her to move! It will take a while to fix this problem, but if there's nothing to evade, she can't evade it!"---

That is what we do, but with a loose rein with our D ring snaffle, riding long and low for long time.

That is because I didn't have the western ways, like Cutter explains, of working a horse over it's hind end to that extent, on the fence.

I learned that later and by then, I was used to the long and low to get a horse over being noodely and behind the bit, as to me so many western horses are, that have very little true iimpulsion and proper gaits.

I would guess that it is about concepts.

Seems that some reading here already think their horses are traveling right.

But, many riders don't pick up on the reins until they need to communicate and then their horses either are over the bit, resisting that contact or behind the bit, giving faster than the rider can achieve contact.

That rider then feels that, if resisting, a tie down will help, or a different bit, etc.

Or the horse is very nice and giving, but the rider doesn't realize that it is evading the contact and so behind the bit, rather than connecting thru that feel of the rein's weight and movement to it's body.

As a side note, contact can be acheived on a loose rein and still have a horse responding well, or behind the bit, if that contact is not corresponding to a horse engaging.

We can see that here some times when a picture is posted and how a horse is really going is shown. Of course, at times it is only that one frame the horse happens to be traveling like that, the next one may have shown a different way of going, but that the poster shows those specific pictures without knowing different, that shows that they are not aware.

That is why to have an experienced person on the ground, at least from time to time, to check our progress, is something all should try for.

Even the riders at the top of their game do it, they know that to see what we are doing while riding, by an experienced eye, is an important complement to what it feels like when on the horse.

---"Here ya go , the proper way to get forward movement - use a carrot stick!"---

-

Love that carrot stick! [Yay]

I will admit that I tried that on a donkey and it didn't work.

Must have been a faulty technique on my part then, since I was a little kid.

Many years later, after I was a horse trainer, I tried it again on a shetland pony and it still didn't work.

Guess that it was not the right pony for that technique, or I should have been under the eye of an experienced trainer, that could have shown me how to do it properly. [ROTFL]

[ 07-20-2006, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Merry ]

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[ROTFL] Merry, I can't believe you actually tried that! [big Grin] Must have been a donkey and pony that didn't like carrots. [Razz]

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[ROTFL] Merry, I can't believe you actually tried that! [big Grin] Must have been a donkey and pony that didn't like carrots. [Razz]

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quote:

Seems that some reading here already think their horses are traveling right.

But, many riders don't pick up on the reins until they need to communicate and then their horses either are over the bit, resisting that contact or behind the bit, giving faster than the rider can achieve contact.

That rider then feels that, if resisting, a tie down will help, or a different bit, etc.

Or the horse is very nice and giving, but the rider doesn't realize that it is evading the contact and so behind the bit, rather than connecting thru that feel of the rein's weight and movement to it's body.

As a side note, contact can be acheived on a loose rein and still have a horse responding well, or behind the bit, if that contact is not corresponding to a horse engaging.


Exactly!!

This is why I put mine in side reins before I ever get on them! They are taught how to move forward into the pressure of the bit, instead of how to evade it! Which is what this horse is doing. I am able to use light pressure on the reins when I ride, and it is because of the groundwork that is done before riding-and having light hands and riding the horse from back to front. [big Grin]

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quote:

Seems that some reading here already think their horses are traveling right.

But, many riders don't pick up on the reins until they need to communicate and then their horses either are over the bit, resisting that contact or behind the bit, giving faster than the rider can achieve contact.

That rider then feels that, if resisting, a tie down will help, or a different bit, etc.

Or the horse is very nice and giving, but the rider doesn't realize that it is evading the contact and so behind the bit, rather than connecting thru that feel of the rein's weight and movement to it's body.

As a side note, contact can be acheived on a loose rein and still have a horse responding well, or behind the bit, if that contact is not corresponding to a horse engaging.


Exactly!!

This is why I put mine in side reins before I ever get on them! They are taught how to move forward into the pressure of the bit, instead of how to evade it! Which is what this horse is doing. I am able to use light pressure on the reins when I ride, and it is because of the groundwork that is done before riding-and having light hands and riding the horse from back to front. [big Grin]

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---"Must have been a donkey and pony that didn't like carrots."---

The donkey, Platero (I think all donkeys were called that [Roll Eyes] ), would take two or there steps and then look baleful back at me, with sad eyes, not fooled about who had to get that treat and hand it properly.

He didn't appreciate anyone playing with food, considered it bad manners.

The pony, Seamus, was not motivated by people's offerings, definitively not by those not handed over promptly.

He always had an agenda of his own, like escaping to town, to sneak some apples out of the grocery's baskets.

As they say, you have to work with the animal you get and those were not amenable to the carrot stick method. [Confused]

---"This is why I put mine in side reins before I ever get on them! They are taught how to move forward into the pressure of the bit, instead of how to evade it! Which is what this horse is doing. I am able to use light pressure on the reins when I ride, and it is because of the groundwork that is done before riding-and having light hands and riding the horse from back to front."---

That is the way I was taught and did most times when starting horses, except some ranch and race colts, that we worked a little bit on the ground, got on and rode out.

[ 07-20-2006, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Merry ]

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---"Must have been a donkey and pony that didn't like carrots."---

The donkey, Platero (I think all donkeys were called that [Roll Eyes] ), would take two or there steps and then look baleful back at me, with sad eyes, not fooled about who had to get that treat and hand it properly.

He didn't appreciate anyone playing with food, considered it bad manners.

The pony, Seamus, was not motivated by people's offerings, definitively not by those not handed over promptly.

He always had an agenda of his own, like escaping to town, to sneak some apples out of the grocery's baskets.

As they say, you have to work with the animal you get and those were not amenable to the carrot stick method. [Confused]

---"This is why I put mine in side reins before I ever get on them! They are taught how to move forward into the pressure of the bit, instead of how to evade it! Which is what this horse is doing. I am able to use light pressure on the reins when I ride, and it is because of the groundwork that is done before riding-and having light hands and riding the horse from back to front."---

That is the way I was taught and did most times when starting horses, except some ranch and race colts, that we worked a little bit on the ground, got on and rode out.

[ 07-20-2006, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Merry ]

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