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Mgtraining

Training vs. abuse

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I agree with that. I hate it when I go into someone else's horse's stall and the horse won't move, or worse, tries to push their way out of the stall. I'm just a boarder so I don't get to introduce them to Mr. stick or Ms. rope!

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I agree with that. I hate it when I go into someone else's horse's stall and the horse won't move, or worse, tries to push their way out of the stall. I'm just a boarder so I don't get to introduce them to Mr. stick or Ms. rope!

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quote:

Originally posted by SkipJacksLady:

sorry I went back and edited my post about 5 times.
[Crazy]

quote:

Sometimes I think people are out of their own "bubble".

[ROTFL]

very very true.

and really, it's not all good or all bad. It works for some, not for others. I used to be way more into it, until I realized I was basically buying into a bunch of fancy marketing on very basic principles of horsemanship that were not unique to one trainer or another.

Ha, I thought it was the coolest thing for, like a week. It was then I witnessed a few NH trained horses.

I dropped that notion like a hot potato.

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quote:

Originally posted by SkipJacksLady:

sorry I went back and edited my post about 5 times.
[Crazy]

quote:

Sometimes I think people are out of their own "bubble".

[ROTFL]

very very true.

and really, it's not all good or all bad. It works for some, not for others. I used to be way more into it, until I realized I was basically buying into a bunch of fancy marketing on very basic principles of horsemanship that were not unique to one trainer or another.

Ha, I thought it was the coolest thing for, like a week. It was then I witnessed a few NH trained horses.

I dropped that notion like a hot potato.

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I rode and handled at least 50 horses over the 3 weeks I was in TN. This was at the cutting horse trainer, and the horses ranged from green 2 year olds to seasoned show horses. Every single horse was a pleasure to ride and handle.

Injecting nasty IM antibiotics into a sick mare was probably tougher for me than for her. She was a sweetheart everytime I had to stick her.

The 2 yr. old with an abcess was a trooper, he tolerated me messing with his sore foot every day, soaking the foot, repacking the hoof and once again bandaging it.....giving him bute. He was a saint.

I could saddle and unsaddle the horses easily, lead two or three back to the barn, open and close gates and gather cattle on even the greenest of 2 yr. olds, these horses were wonderful.

I came back to CA and now I'm "wrestling alligators" again.

Us cutters get bashed all of the time about how we start and train our horses, but both of my geldings (age 11 & 14) are 100% sound, and I wouldn't trade them for the world. I ESPECIALLY wouldn't trade them for most of the horses I've handled in the past few weeks.

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I rode and handled at least 50 horses over the 3 weeks I was in TN. This was at the cutting horse trainer, and the horses ranged from green 2 year olds to seasoned show horses. Every single horse was a pleasure to ride and handle.

Injecting nasty IM antibiotics into a sick mare was probably tougher for me than for her. She was a sweetheart everytime I had to stick her.

The 2 yr. old with an abcess was a trooper, he tolerated me messing with his sore foot every day, soaking the foot, repacking the hoof and once again bandaging it.....giving him bute. He was a saint.

I could saddle and unsaddle the horses easily, lead two or three back to the barn, open and close gates and gather cattle on even the greenest of 2 yr. olds, these horses were wonderful.

I came back to CA and now I'm "wrestling alligators" again.

Us cutters get bashed all of the time about how we start and train our horses, but both of my geldings (age 11 & 14) are 100% sound, and I wouldn't trade them for the world. I ESPECIALLY wouldn't trade them for most of the horses I've handled in the past few weeks.

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Good training is good training, it needs no "labels".

NH is nothing new and it works unless the idiot doing the "training" doesnt' fully understand the concept and application. Then it, like any other form of training, creates monsters.

A horse without discipline is like a runaway topedo...it might zip right by you but it'll hit someone somewhere sometime and cause a lot of grief.

Do i hit my horses? **** yes. We have a cranky 17 or old mare in the pasture who will back up to other horse and just whale away with both hind legs to move them. She's gotten a bucket across the butt many times and has also gotten the idea that she'd better clean her act up. Do i abuse my horses? of course not, but *I* am the alpha horse, not them. And they KNOW IT.

MGtraining, good post. [smiley Wavey]

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

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Good training is good training, it needs no "labels".

NH is nothing new and it works unless the idiot doing the "training" doesnt' fully understand the concept and application. Then it, like any other form of training, creates monsters.

A horse without discipline is like a runaway topedo...it might zip right by you but it'll hit someone somewhere sometime and cause a lot of grief.

Do i hit my horses? **** yes. We have a cranky 17 or old mare in the pasture who will back up to other horse and just whale away with both hind legs to move them. She's gotten a bucket across the butt many times and has also gotten the idea that she'd better clean her act up. Do i abuse my horses? of course not, but *I* am the alpha horse, not them. And they KNOW IT.

MGtraining, good post. [smiley Wavey]

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

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You've had flying buckets in your barn too?? [ROTFL]

quote:

If I have to jerk, and yes, I'm saying, jerk, on a chain (or a rope halter, which I agree is harsher than a chain), then that's what I will do

Thank YOu!! finally someone agrees with me! [Huggy]

quote:

...the world is going to **** cuz teachers and parents can't discipline there children with a little bit of pain anymore

[Not Worthy]

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You've had flying buckets in your barn too?? [ROTFL]

quote:

If I have to jerk, and yes, I'm saying, jerk, on a chain (or a rope halter, which I agree is harsher than a chain), then that's what I will do

Thank YOu!! finally someone agrees with me! [Huggy]

quote:

...the world is going to **** cuz teachers and parents can't discipline there children with a little bit of pain anymore

[Not Worthy]

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Good post.

I want to raise my horses so that they respect me as the leader at all times. And they do. I take them out of their field and lead them up to the barn. They follow me without a lead rope. I open up their stall doors and they go in. They eat and wait for me to come and get them before they come out.

I have a now 3 year old who is wanting to test the limits a bit. Some lines that I "toe" on the ground he likes to flirt dangerously with.

Thursday, I went and rode. He was a little fresh, so I decided to play with him a bit in the arena. He followed me to a corner. I unclipped his lead and we "cut" each other. He got a little too close to me. If he's close enough that I can smack him with my lead, he's too close. I swung the lead rope up and popped him a good one on the shoulder. He knew what he did. I told him to whoa and walked up to him. I bent down to pick up my cell phone that dropped out of my pocket. I looked up, still squatting to him stretching his neck out to snuffle my hair. I invited him in with a cluck. He then sniffed my hair to his content.

Now, does THIS look like a horse that is ticked at me for popping him with a lead?

-

We need to give these animals credit. They're pretty intelligent. Most of the time, they know what they're messing up on.

I think NH wants to simplify the animal itself. One of the biggest turn-offs on NH for me is a show I watched one night. A horse was being pushy, disrespectful and just generally a butthole. The person holding this clinic told the audience that the horse couldn't help it because it was a dominant horse by nature. [Roll Eyes]

By God, my mare can get out in a field and whoop the daylights out of her pasture-mates, but she BETTER not try any of that crap with me! Dominant by nature. [Crazy]

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Good post.

I want to raise my horses so that they respect me as the leader at all times. And they do. I take them out of their field and lead them up to the barn. They follow me without a lead rope. I open up their stall doors and they go in. They eat and wait for me to come and get them before they come out.

I have a now 3 year old who is wanting to test the limits a bit. Some lines that I "toe" on the ground he likes to flirt dangerously with.

Thursday, I went and rode. He was a little fresh, so I decided to play with him a bit in the arena. He followed me to a corner. I unclipped his lead and we "cut" each other. He got a little too close to me. If he's close enough that I can smack him with my lead, he's too close. I swung the lead rope up and popped him a good one on the shoulder. He knew what he did. I told him to whoa and walked up to him. I bent down to pick up my cell phone that dropped out of my pocket. I looked up, still squatting to him stretching his neck out to snuffle my hair. I invited him in with a cluck. He then sniffed my hair to his content.

Now, does THIS look like a horse that is ticked at me for popping him with a lead?

-

We need to give these animals credit. They're pretty intelligent. Most of the time, they know what they're messing up on.

I think NH wants to simplify the animal itself. One of the biggest turn-offs on NH for me is a show I watched one night. A horse was being pushy, disrespectful and just generally a butthole. The person holding this clinic told the audience that the horse couldn't help it because it was a dominant horse by nature. [Roll Eyes]

By God, my mare can get out in a field and whoop the daylights out of her pasture-mates, but she BETTER not try any of that crap with me! Dominant by nature. [Crazy]

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I don't see that many spoiled horses here, only once in a while, with new owners. But even they don't judge it wrong to hit, for corporal punishment was never thrown out the window here, like it was in the seventies in the US. (for kids, I mean- I think the way we treat our animals starts with our basic beliefs about discipline as it relates to our own offspring. ). What I see often is people that just don't have the correct timing or ability to change emotions quickly- once they start to reprimand, they just keep going way after the horse has complied, which eventually makes the horse disrespect them.

I think it is okay to be mad- if you can drop it completely in two seconds. My kids and animals know when I get pissed, but they also know that I will not be pissed as soon as they do what I say- I will even be very nice at that point. I am sure that makes me look schizo to observers, but I have found with my dogs and horses that it is very effective, to make those quick and dramatic changes in emotion and self expression.

I think that people that have had experience with leaders that are not consistant or good with their timing get turned against corporal punishment. Like they haven't experienced it in it's positive form. The form that helps you train your own body, but doesn't leave long lasting pain that other sorts of emotional and verbal punishing can.

Recently someone at the barn has been interested in "natural" methods, and had a Parelli instructor come out. I didn't sign up, but watched. What she was teaching was so very basic about manouvering your horse on the ground, that all I could think afterwards is that this is for people who really are out of touch with their own body, instincts, and animal responses- like the natural instinct to perceive a "territory" around your body and automatically react to others entering it uninvited. I didn't think this needed to be taught, it is natural for us! But perhaps in todays society, many have lost touch with their natural self? Centuries of popular religion claiming our animal side is our "sinful" side may have influenced that. I don't know.

But I walked away thinking it isn't fair for me to put it down because I don't need it. I may have need to learn things that others don't (I know I do- like how to make small talk at parties- any classes on that anywhere???)

What this comes down to is that I believe these systems attract people who are out of touch with their body, and help them get in touch with it. With the most subtle instincts, and then they will find on their own that the body also needs physical contact with the world that is sometimes even violent, and proves the limits (of protection) to be solid. That's why many sports exist that include rather violent contact.

I don't want my horse to back into the corner when I enter. She turns to me expectantly, ears forward, and stands there waiting to see what I shall order. She doesn't leave her stall if I leave the door open, but she does follow me with her eyes and wait for commands. I make sure to let her know I am still paying attention to her, tell her to stay.

But I know some people who have mostly studs, and they like to have their horse afraid of them. Maybe it's appropriate for some.

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I don't see that many spoiled horses here, only once in a while, with new owners. But even they don't judge it wrong to hit, for corporal punishment was never thrown out the window here, like it was in the seventies in the US. (for kids, I mean- I think the way we treat our animals starts with our basic beliefs about discipline as it relates to our own offspring. ). What I see often is people that just don't have the correct timing or ability to change emotions quickly- once they start to reprimand, they just keep going way after the horse has complied, which eventually makes the horse disrespect them.

I think it is okay to be mad- if you can drop it completely in two seconds. My kids and animals know when I get pissed, but they also know that I will not be pissed as soon as they do what I say- I will even be very nice at that point. I am sure that makes me look schizo to observers, but I have found with my dogs and horses that it is very effective, to make those quick and dramatic changes in emotion and self expression.

I think that people that have had experience with leaders that are not consistant or good with their timing get turned against corporal punishment. Like they haven't experienced it in it's positive form. The form that helps you train your own body, but doesn't leave long lasting pain that other sorts of emotional and verbal punishing can.

Recently someone at the barn has been interested in "natural" methods, and had a Parelli instructor come out. I didn't sign up, but watched. What she was teaching was so very basic about manouvering your horse on the ground, that all I could think afterwards is that this is for people who really are out of touch with their own body, instincts, and animal responses- like the natural instinct to perceive a "territory" around your body and automatically react to others entering it uninvited. I didn't think this needed to be taught, it is natural for us! But perhaps in todays society, many have lost touch with their natural self? Centuries of popular religion claiming our animal side is our "sinful" side may have influenced that. I don't know.

But I walked away thinking it isn't fair for me to put it down because I don't need it. I may have need to learn things that others don't (I know I do- like how to make small talk at parties- any classes on that anywhere???)

What this comes down to is that I believe these systems attract people who are out of touch with their body, and help them get in touch with it. With the most subtle instincts, and then they will find on their own that the body also needs physical contact with the world that is sometimes even violent, and proves the limits (of protection) to be solid. That's why many sports exist that include rather violent contact.

I don't want my horse to back into the corner when I enter. She turns to me expectantly, ears forward, and stands there waiting to see what I shall order. She doesn't leave her stall if I leave the door open, but she does follow me with her eyes and wait for commands. I make sure to let her know I am still paying attention to her, tell her to stay.

But I know some people who have mostly studs, and they like to have their horse afraid of them. Maybe it's appropriate for some.

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Mgtraining,

Just curious, how do you find a rope halter more severe than a chain over the nose?

I'd just like a civil discussion, I'm not jumping on you or bashing this thread, as I agree with it as a whole.

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Mgtraining,

Just curious, how do you find a rope halter more severe than a chain over the nose?

I'd just like a civil discussion, I'm not jumping on you or bashing this thread, as I agree with it as a whole.

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I guess it sort of depends on the halter. Any old rope halter, that is soft, is not harsh at all, but one of my clients recently brought me a stiff, Clinton Anderson halter and I'll tell you what, those horses jump right off of that sucker, much faster than with a chain and I guarrantee, someone could tear up a horses face faster with that halter than with a chain. There's knots and pressures on many more parts of the face than just the nose...don't get me wrong, I use it, I like it, but in the wrong hands, it could really be just as dangerous (I think)...maybe that's what it really all comes down to...who's hands it's in!

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I guess it sort of depends on the halter. Any old rope halter, that is soft, is not harsh at all, but one of my clients recently brought me a stiff, Clinton Anderson halter and I'll tell you what, those horses jump right off of that sucker, much faster than with a chain and I guarrantee, someone could tear up a horses face faster with that halter than with a chain. There's knots and pressures on many more parts of the face than just the nose...don't get me wrong, I use it, I like it, but in the wrong hands, it could really be just as dangerous (I think)...maybe that's what it really all comes down to...who's hands it's in!

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The difference between abusive treatment and a proper training method is not a ?black and white? issue. It does not always have the same definitions.

Much depends of the circumstance and the individual horse.

What is ?abuse? towards one horse may not be strong enough for another horse that has a totally different disposition and background. For example, the methods required to ?correct? a badly spoiled and aggressive stallion would be abusive when used on a green horse that is just trying to figure out what is wanted.

Methods that result in injury to the horse are abusive. A rider inadvertently bumping, jerking and pulling on a horse?s mouth because of poor balance and hands is always abuse. Inflicting ?pain? on a horse that does not deserve it is always abuse in my book. Using pain to teach new things is always abuse.

This brings up the question, ?Does a horse ever deserve to have pain introduced in the name of training?? You bet. If the horse knows what he is doing is unacceptable and he does it anyway, he needs to feel a little pain or discomfort. If what he is doing could be dangerous to him or his rider/handler, he may need to feel more discomfort and pain. If he is really ?hard-headed?, stubborn and aggressive, he may need to feel a lot of pain. This same treatment would be abusive to a cooperative horse that is trying to get along or is just testing the boundaries. Where several really hard jerks of the lead rope would be appropriate for one horse, a tiny ?bump? of the lead rope could be too munch for a horse that is ordinarily obedient, light and responsive. That horse may only need a spoken ?Ah!? or need someone to take the slack out of the lead rope by raising his or her hand.

I have several horses that I raised and started and have ridden for several years that have NEVER been punished. They have NEVER been jerked or hit, even with the soft end of a lead rope. They have never made a mistake that required more than a verbal scolding. Of course, one of the main reasons they are so cooperative is because they have lived with 100% consistency ? they have never been allowed to make a mistake or do anything wrong. As a general rule, the more a horse is allowed to do wrong, the harder that horse will be to correct and the more likely it is that pain, or at least discomfort, will be required. Most of my methods of punishment and negative reinforcement were learned and developed during my years of training spoiled horses for the public. A lot of my methods have NEVER been used on a horse I raised and started.

While previous inconsistent and permissive handling brings on a lot of these differences, some of them are a result of genetics. Good ?trainable? dispositions are really important. Horses are not all created equal; some are a lot more equal than others. The longer I trained horses, the more I appreciated horses with good trainable dispositions. Now, I would not think of breeding a mare that I did not ride and train. My stallions have all shown me that they enjoy doing their jobs and that they ?want to be trained?. I never cease to be amazed that complete novices (including some that have never ridden or owned a horse in their lives) can take one of these colts and train it and come out with a nice, pleasant horse. Some of these ?backyard trained? horses have gone to the Show Ring or other competition and come out winners. During this same time, I have trained horses that had horrible dispositions. There are horses that 'thrive on pain'. There are some bloodlines and some types of horses that you could not run fast enough to give one of them to me. When time and again, I see horses of that type or breeding that are really difficult to teach, I just stay away from them. It is a lot more fun to train the nice ones.

A lot of things influence what is a good training method and what is abusive. The method should fit the horse and the situation. The punishment should fit the crime. And --- NO PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE UNTAKEN WHEN A PERSON IS ANGERY AND NOT IN COMPLETE CONTROL!

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The difference between abusive treatment and a proper training method is not a ?black and white? issue. It does not always have the same definitions.

Much depends of the circumstance and the individual horse.

What is ?abuse? towards one horse may not be strong enough for another horse that has a totally different disposition and background. For example, the methods required to ?correct? a badly spoiled and aggressive stallion would be abusive when used on a green horse that is just trying to figure out what is wanted.

Methods that result in injury to the horse are abusive. A rider inadvertently bumping, jerking and pulling on a horse?s mouth because of poor balance and hands is always abuse. Inflicting ?pain? on a horse that does not deserve it is always abuse in my book. Using pain to teach new things is always abuse.

This brings up the question, ?Does a horse ever deserve to have pain introduced in the name of training?? You bet. If the horse knows what he is doing is unacceptable and he does it anyway, he needs to feel a little pain or discomfort. If what he is doing could be dangerous to him or his rider/handler, he may need to feel more discomfort and pain. If he is really ?hard-headed?, stubborn and aggressive, he may need to feel a lot of pain. This same treatment would be abusive to a cooperative horse that is trying to get along or is just testing the boundaries. Where several really hard jerks of the lead rope would be appropriate for one horse, a tiny ?bump? of the lead rope could be too munch for a horse that is ordinarily obedient, light and responsive. That horse may only need a spoken ?Ah!? or need someone to take the slack out of the lead rope by raising his or her hand.

I have several horses that I raised and started and have ridden for several years that have NEVER been punished. They have NEVER been jerked or hit, even with the soft end of a lead rope. They have never made a mistake that required more than a verbal scolding. Of course, one of the main reasons they are so cooperative is because they have lived with 100% consistency ? they have never been allowed to make a mistake or do anything wrong. As a general rule, the more a horse is allowed to do wrong, the harder that horse will be to correct and the more likely it is that pain, or at least discomfort, will be required. Most of my methods of punishment and negative reinforcement were learned and developed during my years of training spoiled horses for the public. A lot of my methods have NEVER been used on a horse I raised and started.

While previous inconsistent and permissive handling brings on a lot of these differences, some of them are a result of genetics. Good ?trainable? dispositions are really important. Horses are not all created equal; some are a lot more equal than others. The longer I trained horses, the more I appreciated horses with good trainable dispositions. Now, I would not think of breeding a mare that I did not ride and train. My stallions have all shown me that they enjoy doing their jobs and that they ?want to be trained?. I never cease to be amazed that complete novices (including some that have never ridden or owned a horse in their lives) can take one of these colts and train it and come out with a nice, pleasant horse. Some of these ?backyard trained? horses have gone to the Show Ring or other competition and come out winners. During this same time, I have trained horses that had horrible dispositions. There are horses that 'thrive on pain'. There are some bloodlines and some types of horses that you could not run fast enough to give one of them to me. When time and again, I see horses of that type or breeding that are really difficult to teach, I just stay away from them. It is a lot more fun to train the nice ones.

A lot of things influence what is a good training method and what is abusive. The method should fit the horse and the situation. The punishment should fit the crime. And --- NO PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE UNTAKEN WHEN A PERSON IS ANGERY AND NOT IN COMPLETE CONTROL!

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quote:

NO PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE UNTAKEN WHEN A PERSON IS ANGERY AND NOT IN COMPLETE CONTROL!

This is getting very hard for me to understand! Either I am an exceptional person, the only one that can feel a bit of anger and stay in control of my actions, or else our interpretation of anger is radically different!!

Since I hear this sometimes come from people who I

see and hear (in person, I mean) talking energetically about topics that are important to them, I know that they are capable of feeling emotion and channeling it with conscious control. I guess they don't consider that emotional energy of not liking something, or rejecting it, as anger, if it is in lower volumes. No emotion at all is indifference.

It's like when people think "apply a bit of pressure with the rein " means "rip the horses face away from him"!

Let's not exagerrate! No emotion means no energy at all. No energy at all ends up being unclear and mushy.

This is like someone saying no one should ever buy a horse with lots of energy because then it will always be out of control! Some people handle an energetic horse just fine and even find that energy useful!

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quote:

NO PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE UNTAKEN WHEN A PERSON IS ANGERY AND NOT IN COMPLETE CONTROL!

This is getting very hard for me to understand! Either I am an exceptional person, the only one that can feel a bit of anger and stay in control of my actions, or else our interpretation of anger is radically different!!

Since I hear this sometimes come from people who I

see and hear (in person, I mean) talking energetically about topics that are important to them, I know that they are capable of feeling emotion and channeling it with conscious control. I guess they don't consider that emotional energy of not liking something, or rejecting it, as anger, if it is in lower volumes. No emotion at all is indifference.

It's like when people think "apply a bit of pressure with the rein " means "rip the horses face away from him"!

Let's not exagerrate! No emotion means no energy at all. No energy at all ends up being unclear and mushy.

This is like someone saying no one should ever buy a horse with lots of energy because then it will always be out of control! Some people handle an energetic horse just fine and even find that energy useful!

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I can be really pi**ed off but I can still take a deep breath, think, plan and then deliberately do what I think is best for that exact situation. My first thought (and might have been my reflex reaction years ago), might not be the most effective measure. Our results have to be effective training - not retaliation. When we act in anger, we are no better than the horse that got mad and tried to hurt us.

The same is true rearing children. The child abuser may backhand a disrespectful child and knock him or her out of a chair. The mature parent, might have that thought come to mind, but instead of doing it, they take a deep breath and send the child to his or her room and take their video games away. Lowering oneself to the level of the aggressor is always counter-productive.

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I can be really pi**ed off but I can still take a deep breath, think, plan and then deliberately do what I think is best for that exact situation. My first thought (and might have been my reflex reaction years ago), might not be the most effective measure. Our results have to be effective training - not retaliation. When we act in anger, we are no better than the horse that got mad and tried to hurt us.

The same is true rearing children. The child abuser may backhand a disrespectful child and knock him or her out of a chair. The mature parent, might have that thought come to mind, but instead of doing it, they take a deep breath and send the child to his or her room and take their video games away. Lowering oneself to the level of the aggressor is always counter-productive.

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quote:

There's knots and pressures on many more parts of the face than just the nose

Exactly! A chain (looped over the noseband to keep it in place)only puts pressure on the nose, a rope halter however has several different places all over it to put pressure on the horse. Most rope halters when put on correctly, are tight enough to where if the horse moves wrong, the pressure is there. Same with a chain (when used correctly), if the horse tries to go past you, or won't back off, simply allowing them to run into it usually works. As soon as they back off the pressure of the chain, the pressure is released.

quote:

NO PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE UNTAKEN WHEN A PERSON IS ANGERY AND NOT IN COMPLETE CONTROL!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is getting very hard for me to understand! Either I am an exceptional person, the only one that can feel a bit of anger and stay in control of my actions, or else our interpretation of anger is radically different

I agree with you bluesma, nobody here can say that they are always totally in control when they correct their horse, if a horse bites you-you WILL be angry, and correct the horse AT THAT TIME! If not, then there can be no correction. If a horse kicks at me, or steps on me-trust me I will be angry for these things-and will correct it then and there-while I'm angry. The horse will know I'm angry, hurt, upset-there's nothing wrong with them knowing that! But what you do need to do is correct them accordingly, not allowing your anger to get the best of you.

But to say you should never get angry at your horse, or correct it at that time is just not possible IMO. [big Grin]

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quote:

There's knots and pressures on many more parts of the face than just the nose

Exactly! A chain (looped over the noseband to keep it in place)only puts pressure on the nose, a rope halter however has several different places all over it to put pressure on the horse. Most rope halters when put on correctly, are tight enough to where if the horse moves wrong, the pressure is there. Same with a chain (when used correctly), if the horse tries to go past you, or won't back off, simply allowing them to run into it usually works. As soon as they back off the pressure of the chain, the pressure is released.

quote:

NO PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE UNTAKEN WHEN A PERSON IS ANGERY AND NOT IN COMPLETE CONTROL!

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This is getting very hard for me to understand! Either I am an exceptional person, the only one that can feel a bit of anger and stay in control of my actions, or else our interpretation of anger is radically different

I agree with you bluesma, nobody here can say that they are always totally in control when they correct their horse, if a horse bites you-you WILL be angry, and correct the horse AT THAT TIME! If not, then there can be no correction. If a horse kicks at me, or steps on me-trust me I will be angry for these things-and will correct it then and there-while I'm angry. The horse will know I'm angry, hurt, upset-there's nothing wrong with them knowing that! But what you do need to do is correct them accordingly, not allowing your anger to get the best of you.

But to say you should never get angry at your horse, or correct it at that time is just not possible IMO. [big Grin]

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I'm on the fence with this one. I want my horse to respect me but have the utmost trust in me, too. I DO NOT hit him for stupid things. If he won't "back" on command, I'm not going to whap him for it, i'll show him gently what I want and he'll get a treat when he does it. In both horses and dogs, i find they're a lot more likely to do what you want if they know there might be a reward involved than if they know they might get hurt if they don't.

If he bites me, he'll get ONE sharp smack in the chest or chin, and then it's over and forgotten.

I think horses do need more strong and forceful training than say dogs, etc. But i've seen plenty of people, even in miniatures, get bitten and take it way too far. They hit a couple times and back them up 10 feet yanking on the chain. A lot of how horses act is confidence I think, too. I have almost complete confidence around my horse at all times. My mom, however, doesn't LIKE my horse and almost fears him. She's nervous when she has to hold him. And she trained problem ARABS. But when she's holding him, he's instantly the bad boy. When she's not around and i'm the only one handling him, he's usually very calm and easy to get along with.

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I'm on the fence with this one. I want my horse to respect me but have the utmost trust in me, too. I DO NOT hit him for stupid things. If he won't "back" on command, I'm not going to whap him for it, i'll show him gently what I want and he'll get a treat when he does it. In both horses and dogs, i find they're a lot more likely to do what you want if they know there might be a reward involved than if they know they might get hurt if they don't.

If he bites me, he'll get ONE sharp smack in the chest or chin, and then it's over and forgotten.

I think horses do need more strong and forceful training than say dogs, etc. But i've seen plenty of people, even in miniatures, get bitten and take it way too far. They hit a couple times and back them up 10 feet yanking on the chain. A lot of how horses act is confidence I think, too. I have almost complete confidence around my horse at all times. My mom, however, doesn't LIKE my horse and almost fears him. She's nervous when she has to hold him. And she trained problem ARABS. But when she's holding him, he's instantly the bad boy. When she's not around and i'm the only one handling him, he's usually very calm and easy to get along with.

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When I said no punishing when Angry, I said it with the meaning of Don't punish with your anger.

I saw a woman who was mad at a stud she was showing, he dropped out(was a few mars a ways away) and instead of cueing him to put it away and give him a tiny bump she usually did, she took a hand crop and beat him right on his "thing" going in circles with him. Hard beating to, she allowed herself to get frustrated and for that to influence her actions....

The other was a little girls horse. It had bad fitting tack on, wasn't being handled right, but every time it twitched to try and find a comfortable way to stand, Her dad would take his fist and start punching the horse in face.. As hard as possible...

Yes, your going to be angry when the horse kicks or bites you, but some can control their anger and some can't. People in general have a tendency to go overboard on discipline when their angry.

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When I said no punishing when Angry, I said it with the meaning of Don't punish with your anger.

I saw a woman who was mad at a stud she was showing, he dropped out(was a few mars a ways away) and instead of cueing him to put it away and give him a tiny bump she usually did, she took a hand crop and beat him right on his "thing" going in circles with him. Hard beating to, she allowed herself to get frustrated and for that to influence her actions....

The other was a little girls horse. It had bad fitting tack on, wasn't being handled right, but every time it twitched to try and find a comfortable way to stand, Her dad would take his fist and start punching the horse in face.. As hard as possible...

Yes, your going to be angry when the horse kicks or bites you, but some can control their anger and some can't. People in general have a tendency to go overboard on discipline when their angry.

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