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BuddyRooShmancyNShy

subtleties in handling horses

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i just lost my previous post....so this one is gonna be shorter...this one-handed typing is so slow even the server seems annoyed, lol!

purpose: figure out if there is some sort of subltety that is causing problem on ground.

hypothesis: have seen evidence that when a person handles my horses the way i do (calm, confident,and quietly) horses behave and are easy to handle. if someone is not confident, is aggressive, or is loud/emotional, horses act nervous and are hard to catch/handle.

evidence: when my farrier comes out, he brings an apprentice. main farrier is calm, but authoritative. horses respond by being calm and obedient. when apprentice handles horses, he is apprehensive and they act fidgety and nervous.

current situation:

1) 2 weeks ago, my horses were down at bf's house for farrier work. he needed to load them up and bring them back to my farm. he had successfully loaded them with me present/coaching (he is newer to horses) several times in days prior. yet on this occasion, he could not get either horse to load. by the time i arrived, horses were agitated, sweating, amped up, etc. (as was bf!) i arrived, loaded horses no problem.

2) this week after breaking my arm, bf went out to catch horses, check them over and fy spray. took him an hour to catch them. happened again yesterday. once caught, he was fine but they were still goofy--normally they are falling asleep when tied.

3) twice this week, my elderly bo went out, fly sprayed horses, no issues. she is calm, no-nonsense, confident. she rarely handles horses--less than bf.

4)good girlfriend went out. experienced horsewoman. could not catch horses. she is more aggressive/loud. very effective, just a different approach than me maybe?

because i am out of commission for a bit, i need help. horses are very allergic to flies so just skipping spraying is not an option. really looking for insight/ideas so that bf can help with horse stuff w/ossue but trying to get to root of prob.

you won't hurt my feelings if you say the horses are just spoiled brats from ****--IF you can give me something constructive as well.

i have no problem walking out, spraying horses, loading, etc. am trying to figure out if this is a hole in training on the horse side or the people side. i know that some horses can be trained to the hilt but if a new rider doesn't know the buttons, horse may seem untrained. wondering if there is something i or the bo are doing that i've failed to communicate to bf.

i really think that horses should behave regardless....but i have been the primary handler for 16years w/ the one and 4 for the other and suspect this may be something i've unknowingly done.

thx in advance!!

[ 05-26-2007, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: BuddyRooShmancyNShy ]

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i just lost my previous post....so this one is gonna be shorter...this one-handed typing is so slow even the server seems annoyed, lol!

purpose: figure out if there is some sort of subltety that is causing problem on ground.

hypothesis: have seen evidence that when a person handles my horses the way i do (calm, confident,and quietly) horses behave and are easy to handle. if someone is not confident, is aggressive, or is loud/emotional, horses act nervous and are hard to catch/handle.

evidence: when my farrier comes out, he brings an apprentice. main farrier is calm, but authoritative. horses respond by being calm and obedient. when apprentice handles horses, he is apprehensive and they act fidgety and nervous.

current situation:

1) 2 weeks ago, my horses were down at bf's house for farrier work. he needed to load them up and bring them back to my farm. he had successfully loaded them with me present/coaching (he is newer to horses) several times in days prior. yet on this occasion, he could not get either horse to load. by the time i arrived, horses were agitated, sweating, amped up, etc. (as was bf!) i arrived, loaded horses no problem.

2) this week after breaking my arm, bf went out to catch horses, check them over and fy spray. took him an hour to catch them. happened again yesterday. once caught, he was fine but they were still goofy--normally they are falling asleep when tied.

3) twice this week, my elderly bo went out, fly sprayed horses, no issues. she is calm, no-nonsense, confident. she rarely handles horses--less than bf.

4)good girlfriend went out. experienced horsewoman. could not catch horses. she is more aggressive/loud. very effective, just a different approach than me maybe?

because i am out of commission for a bit, i need help. horses are very allergic to flies so just skipping spraying is not an option. really looking for insight/ideas so that bf can help with horse stuff w/ossue but trying to get to root of prob.

you won't hurt my feelings if you say the horses are just spoiled brats from ****--IF you can give me something constructive as well.

i have no problem walking out, spraying horses, loading, etc. am trying to figure out if this is a hole in training on the horse side or the people side. i know that some horses can be trained to the hilt but if a new rider doesn't know the buttons, horse may seem untrained. wondering if there is something i or the bo are doing that i've failed to communicate to bf.

i really think that horses should behave regardless....but i have been the primary handler for 16years w/ the one and 4 for the other and suspect this may be something i've unknowingly done.

thx in advance!!

[ 05-26-2007, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: BuddyRooShmancyNShy ]

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Well for what it's worth, I agree with your remarks. Horses just know when someone is not up to dealing with them because they are timid, or because they are aggressive. They will try to get away with stuff with the timid one. And like us, if someone gets aggressive toward us, raises their voices, we get uptight as well. I don't think horses are any different.

Maybe just you standing there will help with the bf and your horses. [Confused] You can't help him get confidence around horses per say. He has to figure that out himself. Maybe his personality will have to change a bit, so he's more like you. We're gonna do this, and you'll do it now, cause I say so. But not to the point where he's pushy or loud. Will be good practice for the day you have children. [Wink][Wink] Give an inch and they take a mile. Be too strict and aggressive and they get defensive and problematic.

[ 05-26-2007, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Mudder ]

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Well for what it's worth, I agree with your remarks. Horses just know when someone is not up to dealing with them because they are timid, or because they are aggressive. They will try to get away with stuff with the timid one. And like us, if someone gets aggressive toward us, raises their voices, we get uptight as well. I don't think horses are any different.

Maybe just you standing there will help with the bf and your horses. [Confused] You can't help him get confidence around horses per say. He has to figure that out himself. Maybe his personality will have to change a bit, so he's more like you. We're gonna do this, and you'll do it now, cause I say so. But not to the point where he's pushy or loud. Will be good practice for the day you have children. [Wink][Wink] Give an inch and they take a mile. Be too strict and aggressive and they get defensive and problematic.

[ 05-26-2007, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Mudder ]

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Sounds reasonable to me. Animals naturally respond better to a quiet yet confident hand, as opposed to a person who is nervous or aggressive.

For example, when I'm working with our dog (who I've been training since he was about 8 weeks old, doing agility, obedience, etc.) he does what he's told. If my sister tries to take him over a course, he gets confused and upset and ignores her, or he looks like a totally new dog to agility.

It wouldn't surprise me if your animals are used to having things done a certain way, with your voice and body language.

You've probably thought of this already, but I'll say it anyway, just in case. Try explaining to your bf, or who ever is doing the handling, about what your animals respond to. Like, if you tend to walk faster, slower; head up, or down; standing tall, or not. Perhaps it will make a difference.

Obvious stuff, I know. But I hope it helps. But I'd have to agree with you and your hypothesis.

Good luck with it! [Huggy]

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Sounds reasonable to me. Animals naturally respond better to a quiet yet confident hand, as opposed to a person who is nervous or aggressive.

For example, when I'm working with our dog (who I've been training since he was about 8 weeks old, doing agility, obedience, etc.) he does what he's told. If my sister tries to take him over a course, he gets confused and upset and ignores her, or he looks like a totally new dog to agility.

It wouldn't surprise me if your animals are used to having things done a certain way, with your voice and body language.

You've probably thought of this already, but I'll say it anyway, just in case. Try explaining to your bf, or who ever is doing the handling, about what your animals respond to. Like, if you tend to walk faster, slower; head up, or down; standing tall, or not. Perhaps it will make a difference.

Obvious stuff, I know. But I hope it helps. But I'd have to agree with you and your hypothesis.

Good luck with it! [Huggy]

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this isn't something you can 'do' anything about - it isn't your problem.... it's theirs.

Why would you expect your horse not to react differently to someone else? They aren't machines... other people walk funny, smell funny, talk funny, and probably have horse eating squirrels in their pockets for all they know.

It's a handler's job to handle horses... it's a horse's job to be a horse [big Grin]

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this isn't something you can 'do' anything about - it isn't your problem.... it's theirs.

Why would you expect your horse not to react differently to someone else? They aren't machines... other people walk funny, smell funny, talk funny, and probably have horse eating squirrels in their pockets for all they know.

It's a handler's job to handle horses... it's a horse's job to be a horse [big Grin]

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thx mudder. leoned you're right. but both bf and friend are saying things like "your horses are rotten and naughty and crazy" and i'm thinkng maybe i've got a prob. because i cannot imagine them doing the stuff bf says they did.

like rearing when trying to load in trailer. can't imagine how they got so worked up that day and yet loaded fine for me??

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thx mudder. leoned you're right. but both bf and friend are saying things like "your horses are rotten and naughty and crazy" and i'm thinkng maybe i've got a prob. because i cannot imagine them doing the stuff bf says they did.

like rearing when trying to load in trailer. can't imagine how they got so worked up that day and yet loaded fine for me??

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BuddyRoo, thanks for giving me the tip to look at your post! [Huggy]

I hope you don't mind me posting a question...

What everyone else is saying makes sense, but in the long run can we train a horse to respect others as well as they do their day by day handler or is this issue depending on the individual horse?

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BuddyRoo, thanks for giving me the tip to look at your post! [Huggy]

I hope you don't mind me posting a question...

What everyone else is saying makes sense, but in the long run can we train a horse to respect others as well as they do their day by day handler or is this issue depending on the individual horse?

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There is indeed a way to teach your horses to deal with the less than adept handlers. You need to learn to "lie" to your horses. Remember the old adage "spooky people make quiet horses"? When you handle your horses, be random. Once you have trained your horse to accept the things you want them to, its time to start finding new ways to do the same old things. Horses can learn to generalize the way people do, but they need to be shown how.

We become better riders/handlers not only by time in with horses, but by many different horses we handle. Horses are the same way. "One man" horses are made, not born and we can become "one horse" men. Both things have their good points and bad points.

Broo, Yes, your horses ARE spoiled, but in a good way, they are spoiled by good quiet handling. There is no sin in that. I do think that with a little time and persistance your horses can learn to deal with the other mere mortals that will be handling them until your arm heals.

As a side note, if you need any moral support about broken bones, I have plenty of personal experience to draw on. [Huggy]

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There is indeed a way to teach your horses to deal with the less than adept handlers. You need to learn to "lie" to your horses. Remember the old adage "spooky people make quiet horses"? When you handle your horses, be random. Once you have trained your horse to accept the things you want them to, its time to start finding new ways to do the same old things. Horses can learn to generalize the way people do, but they need to be shown how.

We become better riders/handlers not only by time in with horses, but by many different horses we handle. Horses are the same way. "One man" horses are made, not born and we can become "one horse" men. Both things have their good points and bad points.

Broo, Yes, your horses ARE spoiled, but in a good way, they are spoiled by good quiet handling. There is no sin in that. I do think that with a little time and persistance your horses can learn to deal with the other mere mortals that will be handling them until your arm heals.

As a side note, if you need any moral support about broken bones, I have plenty of personal experience to draw on. [Huggy]

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skippen...replied on your other post:

skippen, i'm really not sure. i think some horses, especially geldings, can, after a long and consistent history, act a certain way no matter the handler's experience level.

but i think that most horses, due to their herd dynamics mentality (ie:always wanting to know where they stand in the pecking order) will consistently test/challenge their handler/rider.

i think that if you take a horse who when turned out with others really doesn't care where they stand (i've met a few) that they would not challenge a handler either.

but that's like what? 1 percent of horses???

i just dn't think you can totally dumb down ahorse to the point that you never have to worry.

in my situation, just being present seems to be enough to keep my horses in line no matter who is doing the work. i just verbally correct and whammo, all is well.

i'm certainly pondering this myself right now as i need my girls to shape up at least til i can walk about for more than 10 min at a time!!!

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skippen...replied on your other post:

skippen, i'm really not sure. i think some horses, especially geldings, can, after a long and consistent history, act a certain way no matter the handler's experience level.

but i think that most horses, due to their herd dynamics mentality (ie:always wanting to know where they stand in the pecking order) will consistently test/challenge their handler/rider.

i think that if you take a horse who when turned out with others really doesn't care where they stand (i've met a few) that they would not challenge a handler either.

but that's like what? 1 percent of horses???

i just dn't think you can totally dumb down ahorse to the point that you never have to worry.

in my situation, just being present seems to be enough to keep my horses in line no matter who is doing the work. i just verbally correct and whammo, all is well.

i'm certainly pondering this myself right now as i need my girls to shape up at least til i can walk about for more than 10 min at a time!!!

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Some horses are "honest", others are not. I think that is just in their makeup, they can receive the exact same training, but some horses will just constantly push the limits.

For me personally, Bucky is basically a good horse, but he constantly needs reminders about acceptable vs. unacceptable behavior. Rooster, on the other hand, has difficulties because he only has one eye, but once he learns something, he retains it.

Rooster is much more "honest" than Bucky. When I need a horse in a hurry, I'll grab Bucky because I can make him "step up to the plate" where I tend to baby Rooster because I don't want to put him in dangerous situations. I don't want a cow to slam into Rooster's blind side and get both of us into a wreck.

I've gone through quite a readjustment since I'm back to working with only quarter horses. The trainer constantly tells me I'm holding the horses too close when I'm leading them. I can lead his horses with a 3' slack, while when I was working for the vet I was holding the Morgans at the clasp of the leadshank. I just have to retrain myself.

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Some horses are "honest", others are not. I think that is just in their makeup, they can receive the exact same training, but some horses will just constantly push the limits.

For me personally, Bucky is basically a good horse, but he constantly needs reminders about acceptable vs. unacceptable behavior. Rooster, on the other hand, has difficulties because he only has one eye, but once he learns something, he retains it.

Rooster is much more "honest" than Bucky. When I need a horse in a hurry, I'll grab Bucky because I can make him "step up to the plate" where I tend to baby Rooster because I don't want to put him in dangerous situations. I don't want a cow to slam into Rooster's blind side and get both of us into a wreck.

I've gone through quite a readjustment since I'm back to working with only quarter horses. The trainer constantly tells me I'm holding the horses too close when I'm leading them. I can lead his horses with a 3' slack, while when I was working for the vet I was holding the Morgans at the clasp of the leadshank. I just have to retrain myself.

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bayfilly--

just picking your brain a bit more....

when i say quiet, i do not mean "careful". ie: they are exposed to noise, quick movements...not babied or spooky. what i meant about quiet is for example, i do not fill space with sound or movement unless it's specific. bf will be on his horse and want to stop. he'll say "whoa whao whoa whoa! louder and louder.

me? i'd say WHOA!

when i load, i say "step up"

him "come on, let's get in the trailer. listen you ***, i said let's go.

i use very few, but meaningful words.

also, body position. back to trailering....on a lunge line or in a pasture, if i step in to the horse facing them towards the head/shoulder, they whoa. if i want them to move on, i open my angle and step (slightly) towards their hip.

so when i lod, i walk beside them, then step towards the hip with an open angle--go forward. while bf willget in front, face them, and wonder why they stop.

does that make sense?

what i'm after--and what you hit on--is a way to teach them more foolproof commands i guess. something less dependent on body language or finesse. maybe more oral? i guess verbally i tend not to give as many cues....just whoa, step up, easy, and good girl. lol that's it.

boy, this really is a helpful exercise. thanks all!

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bayfilly--

just picking your brain a bit more....

when i say quiet, i do not mean "careful". ie: they are exposed to noise, quick movements...not babied or spooky. what i meant about quiet is for example, i do not fill space with sound or movement unless it's specific. bf will be on his horse and want to stop. he'll say "whoa whao whoa whoa! louder and louder.

me? i'd say WHOA!

when i load, i say "step up"

him "come on, let's get in the trailer. listen you ***, i said let's go.

i use very few, but meaningful words.

also, body position. back to trailering....on a lunge line or in a pasture, if i step in to the horse facing them towards the head/shoulder, they whoa. if i want them to move on, i open my angle and step (slightly) towards their hip.

so when i lod, i walk beside them, then step towards the hip with an open angle--go forward. while bf willget in front, face them, and wonder why they stop.

does that make sense?

what i'm after--and what you hit on--is a way to teach them more foolproof commands i guess. something less dependent on body language or finesse. maybe more oral? i guess verbally i tend not to give as many cues....just whoa, step up, easy, and good girl. lol that's it.

boy, this really is a helpful exercise. thanks all!

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Hey Buddyroo,

I liked what Bayfilly suggested but I think you have done this already. I try to trick my horse sometimes too. I have played the "drunk rider" game with my horse and the first time he was really watching me but honestly was still pretty good. I just moved randomly and pushed into him clumesly (is that a word?) to see if I was being "to" consistent. You have already observed the clear differences in your horse handling methods and those of your "helpers" so the only thing you can do is stand by, be a good influence and let your horses get used to the newness of the strange people. It's nothing but good for them especially when they get back to focusing on what their jobs are and what is expected of them, reguardless of what human asks. A little patience might be all you need and obviously you are a very "hands on" horsewoman. I think your own frustration at being laid up is getting to you. Relax and let your horses figure this one out.

William (historyrider)

[ 05-27-2007, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: historyrider ]

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Hey Buddyroo,

I liked what Bayfilly suggested but I think you have done this already. I try to trick my horse sometimes too. I have played the "drunk rider" game with my horse and the first time he was really watching me but honestly was still pretty good. I just moved randomly and pushed into him clumesly (is that a word?) to see if I was being "to" consistent. You have already observed the clear differences in your horse handling methods and those of your "helpers" so the only thing you can do is stand by, be a good influence and let your horses get used to the newness of the strange people. It's nothing but good for them especially when they get back to focusing on what their jobs are and what is expected of them, reguardless of what human asks. A little patience might be all you need and obviously you are a very "hands on" horsewoman. I think your own frustration at being laid up is getting to you. Relax and let your horses figure this one out.

William (historyrider)

[ 05-27-2007, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: historyrider ]

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BuddyRoo - I feel I some how have failed my horses by not being rougher, louder, more demanding...

But on the other hand I can approach most so called problem horses that others (mostly men) say are impossible to catch or halter. I had to catch a guy's mare at a cattle drive that was in the way when he was late. He was shocked that I didn't have any problem getting her at all, especially since I had never ever handled this horse before.

It wouldn't hurt some people to learn to be a little quieter in their handling methods. [Wink]

I read once that even if you don't like a particular horse to pretend you do and you will get better results when dealing with it. I thought that some excellent advice to pass on.

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BuddyRoo - I feel I some how have failed my horses by not being rougher, louder, more demanding...

But on the other hand I can approach most so called problem horses that others (mostly men) say are impossible to catch or halter. I had to catch a guy's mare at a cattle drive that was in the way when he was late. He was shocked that I didn't have any problem getting her at all, especially since I had never ever handled this horse before.

It wouldn't hurt some people to learn to be a little quieter in their handling methods. [Wink]

I read once that even if you don't like a particular horse to pretend you do and you will get better results when dealing with it. I thought that some excellent advice to pass on.

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Broo~ I get what you say about your horses being quiet. Being a spooky, or random person helps get them to be foolproof. I try to avoid "bubble wrapping" a situation so that my horses learn to deal with a wide range of situations. I treat my horses much like you, with the "minimalistic" approach. I have the expectation that after I teach them what I am looking for that they will comply appropriately every time to the command. If not, we will discuss, perhaps argue about it. They have learned that the argument is not over until I win. I lead first and am friends later when relationships are clear.

My dear bf is much different. He wants to be their friends first and in command second. He runs into trouble occasionally and doesn't always get "why". I have a 3 y/o gelding that I can run up to in the pasture. My bf can't catch him. That is unacceptable to me, so it is a work in progress. The horse now only gets grained by my bf. The horse understands being caught and all that goes with it, he just feels that he has reason to avoid. I'll just take that reason, whatever it is, away.

That same gelding used to be head shy. A fleece throw rug helped him get over that. I waved it around his head and rubbed him with it after I waved it. Once he realized that it was soft and wouldn't hurt him, I changed tactics. I switched to a white towel. It was a good itcher and he loves to have his eyebrow ridges rubbed.

Perhaps letting your other handlers know what you normally do, and do think about the non-verbal as well as non-verbal cues you give. Also think about what you do in response to refusals.

Overall, I think that the situation is not a loss, it may take some coaching and training, but I think you can get it done.

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Broo~ I get what you say about your horses being quiet. Being a spooky, or random person helps get them to be foolproof. I try to avoid "bubble wrapping" a situation so that my horses learn to deal with a wide range of situations. I treat my horses much like you, with the "minimalistic" approach. I have the expectation that after I teach them what I am looking for that they will comply appropriately every time to the command. If not, we will discuss, perhaps argue about it. They have learned that the argument is not over until I win. I lead first and am friends later when relationships are clear.

My dear bf is much different. He wants to be their friends first and in command second. He runs into trouble occasionally and doesn't always get "why". I have a 3 y/o gelding that I can run up to in the pasture. My bf can't catch him. That is unacceptable to me, so it is a work in progress. The horse now only gets grained by my bf. The horse understands being caught and all that goes with it, he just feels that he has reason to avoid. I'll just take that reason, whatever it is, away.

That same gelding used to be head shy. A fleece throw rug helped him get over that. I waved it around his head and rubbed him with it after I waved it. Once he realized that it was soft and wouldn't hurt him, I changed tactics. I switched to a white towel. It was a good itcher and he loves to have his eyebrow ridges rubbed.

Perhaps letting your other handlers know what you normally do, and do think about the non-verbal as well as non-verbal cues you give. Also think about what you do in response to refusals.

Overall, I think that the situation is not a loss, it may take some coaching and training, but I think you can get it done.

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Well, I know nobody cares what I think, but I've been following this thread and I just keep wanting to say-

I hear all the time horses that ignore your inadeptness as a horseperson called "honest", and I cannot think of them as anything but dishonest!

Why should they pretend that the human is being balanced and communicating well, when they are not?

Why is it important to encourage people to think they know what they are doing when they do not? -Especially when what they are doing is being responsible for the life of another being?

the skills that make one able to work with horses effectively are also important skills when it comes to working with humans, so everyone in a persons life benefits when a person hones those skills.

Yeah, I have seen horses that will be perfect with the worst jerks, or just the most well meaning clumsies and they end up getting hurt by them. Or encouraging those people to think they are skilled andgoing off to take on challenges beyond their abilities, and getting hurt.

Why not tell your boyfriend to make a small roundpen, and start teaching him how to communicate with the horse at liberty?

Tell your friend that you don't want horses with dulled senses because you don't like having to yell and make big movements to get a reaction?

Since these are your horses, and not part of a trail string, is there any real reason they should be dulled down to make novices feel good?

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Well, I know nobody cares what I think, but I've been following this thread and I just keep wanting to say-

I hear all the time horses that ignore your inadeptness as a horseperson called "honest", and I cannot think of them as anything but dishonest!

Why should they pretend that the human is being balanced and communicating well, when they are not?

Why is it important to encourage people to think they know what they are doing when they do not? -Especially when what they are doing is being responsible for the life of another being?

the skills that make one able to work with horses effectively are also important skills when it comes to working with humans, so everyone in a persons life benefits when a person hones those skills.

Yeah, I have seen horses that will be perfect with the worst jerks, or just the most well meaning clumsies and they end up getting hurt by them. Or encouraging those people to think they are skilled andgoing off to take on challenges beyond their abilities, and getting hurt.

Why not tell your boyfriend to make a small roundpen, and start teaching him how to communicate with the horse at liberty?

Tell your friend that you don't want horses with dulled senses because you don't like having to yell and make big movements to get a reaction?

Since these are your horses, and not part of a trail string, is there any real reason they should be dulled down to make novices feel good?

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well, i think i found the root of the bf flyspray prob.....

we went out yesterday and walked right up to the group. i put my arm around chey's neck and started spraying. i felt her get kind of tense and looked over to see bf "chasing" his horse w/ the fly spray. ie: he started spraying, horse started walking away, bf followed....as a result, all of the horses started moving. told him to throw an arm around and hold the horse and voila! i imagine he doesn't have this prob at home because he's in a smaller space--not open 20 acres.

fancy has sores from her fly mask. he hasn't taken them off in a week. other two horses had rubbed theirs off...

going back today to dr. and work on them.

bluesma--honey--reread your post. right off the bat, you invalidated your opinion ON YOUR OWN. i'm not in the drama...so don't presume to think i will discount you--and girl, chin up!!!

regarding your thoughts on the situation...

i don't want to dumb them down so people feel better about themselves. i want to understand what i ned to tell bf so he can approach and handle the horses because currently, i can't. i can't drive, and i only have use of one hand. so in this situation i need to find a way for him to handle the horses without me necessarily being there.

as an example--my one horse now has open sores on her face because he couldn't catch them/handle them well enough to take her mask off. it is in the interest of the horses that i am trying to find a solution.

not to turn them over to an idiot or something.

as far as a roundpen...bo won't allow me to do anything like that, but i can work w/ him on the lunge. thing was, i didn't even know we had a problem til now because when i am there, all is well....

we'll work on it today...

thanks all!!

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well, i think i found the root of the bf flyspray prob.....

we went out yesterday and walked right up to the group. i put my arm around chey's neck and started spraying. i felt her get kind of tense and looked over to see bf "chasing" his horse w/ the fly spray. ie: he started spraying, horse started walking away, bf followed....as a result, all of the horses started moving. told him to throw an arm around and hold the horse and voila! i imagine he doesn't have this prob at home because he's in a smaller space--not open 20 acres.

fancy has sores from her fly mask. he hasn't taken them off in a week. other two horses had rubbed theirs off...

going back today to dr. and work on them.

bluesma--honey--reread your post. right off the bat, you invalidated your opinion ON YOUR OWN. i'm not in the drama...so don't presume to think i will discount you--and girl, chin up!!!

regarding your thoughts on the situation...

i don't want to dumb them down so people feel better about themselves. i want to understand what i ned to tell bf so he can approach and handle the horses because currently, i can't. i can't drive, and i only have use of one hand. so in this situation i need to find a way for him to handle the horses without me necessarily being there.

as an example--my one horse now has open sores on her face because he couldn't catch them/handle them well enough to take her mask off. it is in the interest of the horses that i am trying to find a solution.

not to turn them over to an idiot or something.

as far as a roundpen...bo won't allow me to do anything like that, but i can work w/ him on the lunge. thing was, i didn't even know we had a problem til now because when i am there, all is well....

we'll work on it today...

thanks all!!

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