cutter123

SpottedTApps; a video for you

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Well I set out to make a video to demonstrate the doubling into the fence/circle thing I was talking about to get South on her hip and not diving/kicking hip out.

I didn't want to do it on one of our broke horses; I didn't think that would be as helpful as doing it on a "problem" horse.

Well this horse had the same problem as South. As well as lots of other problems. Hahahahaha anyway I set up the video camera for the demo and got more than I bargained for. I decided to post it anyway so you could see the process of working through this horse's resistance and getting him thinking about softening, relaxing, bending, and using his hip. (and keeping his feet on the ground LOL)

Well here you go!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg-ckhE3Vss

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZxBvuxWjs

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rPOu1K3zGKk

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[Wink] I only watched half of the first one and... I think that the horse was going fine before you started to turn him into circles.? There are a lot of different and more affective ways to get the horse to do what you want him to do. He was a little shocked when all of a sudden you yanked on him mouth. Try different things. Use more your legs and seat then just your hands. Good luck [Wink]

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[Wink] I only watched half of the first one and... I think that the horse was going fine before you started to turn him into circles.? There are a lot of different and more affective ways to get the horse to do what you want him to do. He was a little shocked when all of a sudden you yanked on him mouth. Try different things. Use more your legs and seat then just your hands. Good luck [Wink]

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I have generally always enjoyed your posts, Cutter, but those videos were a bit much. I really don't think that horse did anything that deserved the amount of jerking, whacking, and kicking that it got. I know you were trying to do an example exercise, but that horse was not nearly ready for anything you were asking of it.

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I have generally always enjoyed your posts, Cutter, but those videos were a bit much. I really don't think that horse did anything that deserved the amount of jerking, whacking, and kicking that it got. I know you were trying to do an example exercise, but that horse was not nearly ready for anything you were asking of it.

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I guess maybe I am looking at different videos. I see a very resistant horse that has no clue how to balance himself or use himself. I see a horse that with any amount of pressure shuts down mentally. I don't see a rider being unkind. This horse has already hurt someone. He has learned that pressure of any kind is stressful and doesn't know how to relax or give. Acceptance is not something this horse looks like he knows how to do.

There are times when training a horse like this isn't going to be pretty. And yet, Cutter posted these videos for us to see and learn from.

This is what in human therapy would be called "crisis therapy". He needs to learn how to accept pressure from the rider, and this is after a few rides where they got to know each other. Cutter made the cues obvious for all to see. I see her using her whole body to set this horse up for his turns, so I'm not sure where the "use more seat/legs" comment comes from. I see them being used just fine. [Confused]

This horse looks like he has a lot to learn and never really had a solid foundation. To get to building that foundation, he's GOT to learn how to deal. I don't think that lovin' up on this horse would accomplish as much as many people would like it too. I think it would just reinforce his bracy, on the muscle way of going. I think that there are going to be rides like this where the horse offers distractions and fights because that's all he knows. When the foundation training is poor, like this horse's foundation training obviously was, you have to knock that foundation aside and begin building a new foundation.

This is a horse that was given his issues by someone else and has been sent in to be fixed if he can be. I know I couldn't have done better with the horse. I'd love to see videos from other "trainers" with a horse with similar problems (bracy, on the muscle 4 y/o that has no good foundation training) show us all what they have done, and what they would do different.

I think this horse will be a totally different horse in a week. I'd love to see video!

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I guess maybe I am looking at different videos. I see a very resistant horse that has no clue how to balance himself or use himself. I see a horse that with any amount of pressure shuts down mentally. I don't see a rider being unkind. This horse has already hurt someone. He has learned that pressure of any kind is stressful and doesn't know how to relax or give. Acceptance is not something this horse looks like he knows how to do.

There are times when training a horse like this isn't going to be pretty. And yet, Cutter posted these videos for us to see and learn from.

This is what in human therapy would be called "crisis therapy". He needs to learn how to accept pressure from the rider, and this is after a few rides where they got to know each other. Cutter made the cues obvious for all to see. I see her using her whole body to set this horse up for his turns, so I'm not sure where the "use more seat/legs" comment comes from. I see them being used just fine. [Confused]

This horse looks like he has a lot to learn and never really had a solid foundation. To get to building that foundation, he's GOT to learn how to deal. I don't think that lovin' up on this horse would accomplish as much as many people would like it too. I think it would just reinforce his bracy, on the muscle way of going. I think that there are going to be rides like this where the horse offers distractions and fights because that's all he knows. When the foundation training is poor, like this horse's foundation training obviously was, you have to knock that foundation aside and begin building a new foundation.

This is a horse that was given his issues by someone else and has been sent in to be fixed if he can be. I know I couldn't have done better with the horse. I'd love to see videos from other "trainers" with a horse with similar problems (bracy, on the muscle 4 y/o that has no good foundation training) show us all what they have done, and what they would do different.

I think this horse will be a totally different horse in a week. I'd love to see video!

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quote:

Originally posted by pegasus431:

I have generally always enjoyed your posts, Cutter, but those videos were a bit much. I really don't think that horse did anything that deserved the amount of jerking, whacking, and kicking that it got. I know you were trying to do an example exercise, but that horse was not nearly ready for anything you were asking of it.

With a horse like the one in this video, I doubt that anything lighter would even make it onto his radar. He has learned to brace through and muscle up on any kind of pressure at all. This is the tough part for both the horse and rider. Cutter's got to put in buttons that should have been there already so she can fix the problems this horse has been given. It's a LOT tougher to retrofit training on a horse that has never known finesse than to start from scratch on a horse that has always been handled right, or one that hasn't been handled at all!

I'd rather see someone get in there and make the point than nag the horse into more problems.

[ 07-17-2008, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Bayfilly13 ]

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quote:

Originally posted by pegasus431:

I have generally always enjoyed your posts, Cutter, but those videos were a bit much. I really don't think that horse did anything that deserved the amount of jerking, whacking, and kicking that it got. I know you were trying to do an example exercise, but that horse was not nearly ready for anything you were asking of it.

With a horse like the one in this video, I doubt that anything lighter would even make it onto his radar. He has learned to brace through and muscle up on any kind of pressure at all. This is the tough part for both the horse and rider. Cutter's got to put in buttons that should have been there already so she can fix the problems this horse has been given. It's a LOT tougher to retrofit training on a horse that has never known finesse than to start from scratch on a horse that has always been handled right, or one that hasn't been handled at all!

I'd rather see someone get in there and make the point than nag the horse into more problems.

[ 07-17-2008, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Bayfilly13 ]

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hmmmm [Confused]

So did you all miss the part where he tried to run off with me and buck me off????

Perhaps the fact that I stuck on him and got him back under control overshadowed that part? [Duh]

Why on earth would I want to delete this post because a few people with uneducated eyes missed the point and couldn't see what was happening?

I highly doubt any of you who seem to be making a negative judgement would have been able to ride out what this horse dished out to me, and on top of that got him schooled so that he won't do it again.

This horse has already broken his owner's collar bone. He has a lot of problems. The kind of problems he has are not fixed by babying and *****footing around him.

I guess it's my fault for not explaining more about this. This horse is here because he has a lot of issues. Now when a horse is stiff and resistant and hasn't been taught how to give to pressure, I will go as easy on them as they want to be. This horse, on this day, did not want to be easy. I did what it took to get the point across so that he won't fall over on his owner again and break another one of her bones.

This horse is not a bad horse. This horse has not been taught how to give to pressure. He has not been taught how to relax under a rider. Instead he tries to buck or run off, or turn his head inside out and toss it so high in the air he about will break your nose. In the past, people have resorted to big bits and tie downs. I put him in a simple snaffle and did what it took to get him going forward and staying between my legs and giving (somewhat) to pressure. I did not hurt him in any way. Actually, he was so nice and relaxed at the end of the ride, some long held tension went out of his eyes and now hopefully he will be on his way to being a better, more relaxed horse who can enjoy his job.

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hmmmm [Confused]

So did you all miss the part where he tried to run off with me and buck me off????

Perhaps the fact that I stuck on him and got him back under control overshadowed that part? [Duh]

Why on earth would I want to delete this post because a few people with uneducated eyes missed the point and couldn't see what was happening?

I highly doubt any of you who seem to be making a negative judgement would have been able to ride out what this horse dished out to me, and on top of that got him schooled so that he won't do it again.

This horse has already broken his owner's collar bone. He has a lot of problems. The kind of problems he has are not fixed by babying and *****footing around him.

I guess it's my fault for not explaining more about this. This horse is here because he has a lot of issues. Now when a horse is stiff and resistant and hasn't been taught how to give to pressure, I will go as easy on them as they want to be. This horse, on this day, did not want to be easy. I did what it took to get the point across so that he won't fall over on his owner again and break another one of her bones.

This horse is not a bad horse. This horse has not been taught how to give to pressure. He has not been taught how to relax under a rider. Instead he tries to buck or run off, or turn his head inside out and toss it so high in the air he about will break your nose. In the past, people have resorted to big bits and tie downs. I put him in a simple snaffle and did what it took to get him going forward and staying between my legs and giving (somewhat) to pressure. I did not hurt him in any way. Actually, he was so nice and relaxed at the end of the ride, some long held tension went out of his eyes and now hopefully he will be on his way to being a better, more relaxed horse who can enjoy his job.

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quote:

Originally posted by Bayfilly13:

quote:

Originally posted by pegasus431:

I have generally always enjoyed your posts, Cutter, but those videos were a bit much. I really don't think that horse did anything that deserved the amount of jerking, whacking, and kicking that it got. I know you were trying to do an example exercise, but that horse was not nearly ready for anything you were asking of it.

With a horse like the one in this video, I doubt that anything lighter would even make it onto his radar. He has learned to brace through and muscle up on any kind of pressure at all.

I'd rather see someone get in there and make the point than nag the horse into more problems.

That would be true for this ride. He has been fought with so much already all he knows how to do is fight. What he wasn't ready for was to be light. I don't seek to fight with a horse. When all a horse knows how to do is fight, it takes someone going through the fight and taking it out the other side, getting rid of the fight, so that learning can take place. NOW, this horse is more ready to be light and easy. As was evidenced today in my ride on him. He learned about giving and now he is trying to do that. He has some ingrained habits and it will take a while for new habits to be developed but the crisis is over and I highly doubt we will have another day like the one in the video. With horses that are started right and dont' have the holes in the foundation that this horse has, days like this mostly never even happen. On the horses in this barn that I have started, I have never had to be even half as hard on them as this. However, when a problem horse comes along, in order to truely fix the problem, it takes someone who can GET THE POINT ACROSS in the firmest, quickest way possible, doing no less and no more than is necessary.

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quote:

Originally posted by Bayfilly13:

quote:

Originally posted by pegasus431:

I have generally always enjoyed your posts, Cutter, but those videos were a bit much. I really don't think that horse did anything that deserved the amount of jerking, whacking, and kicking that it got. I know you were trying to do an example exercise, but that horse was not nearly ready for anything you were asking of it.

With a horse like the one in this video, I doubt that anything lighter would even make it onto his radar. He has learned to brace through and muscle up on any kind of pressure at all.

I'd rather see someone get in there and make the point than nag the horse into more problems.

That would be true for this ride. He has been fought with so much already all he knows how to do is fight. What he wasn't ready for was to be light. I don't seek to fight with a horse. When all a horse knows how to do is fight, it takes someone going through the fight and taking it out the other side, getting rid of the fight, so that learning can take place. NOW, this horse is more ready to be light and easy. As was evidenced today in my ride on him. He learned about giving and now he is trying to do that. He has some ingrained habits and it will take a while for new habits to be developed but the crisis is over and I highly doubt we will have another day like the one in the video. With horses that are started right and dont' have the holes in the foundation that this horse has, days like this mostly never even happen. On the horses in this barn that I have started, I have never had to be even half as hard on them as this. However, when a problem horse comes along, in order to truely fix the problem, it takes someone who can GET THE POINT ACROSS in the firmest, quickest way possible, doing no less and no more than is necessary.

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I agree with Bayfilly. Cutter- you have a lot of courage to post those videos. Not because I think that you did anything wrong. On the contrary, you kept after your goals, and didn't let a tough horse distract you from your focus.

Folks, the important think to look at is the fact that she was not unreasonable with the horse. He was a big bully, who offered her a lot of distractions, and was willing to work hard to get out of work. She didn't get frustrated with him, or work him into the ground. She wasn't any rougher with him, than he was with her. She had to stand up to him, and make him realize that his choices had consequences.

For those of you who thought she was yanking him around, she asked him plenty of times with her legs and her body position. He was ignoring her cues, and to make a change, she had to really give him a huge correction to get him out of the rut he was in. That horse is a spoiled bully who needs to start earning his keep. but that's just what I saw.

That being said, I really like to fix problems on the ground. Cutter, have you thought about ground driving? You might get some steering and body control, without needing a chiropractor after getting off the horse!

Good job, though, and way to stick with it!

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I agree with Bayfilly. Cutter- you have a lot of courage to post those videos. Not because I think that you did anything wrong. On the contrary, you kept after your goals, and didn't let a tough horse distract you from your focus.

Folks, the important think to look at is the fact that she was not unreasonable with the horse. He was a big bully, who offered her a lot of distractions, and was willing to work hard to get out of work. She didn't get frustrated with him, or work him into the ground. She wasn't any rougher with him, than he was with her. She had to stand up to him, and make him realize that his choices had consequences.

For those of you who thought she was yanking him around, she asked him plenty of times with her legs and her body position. He was ignoring her cues, and to make a change, she had to really give him a huge correction to get him out of the rut he was in. That horse is a spoiled bully who needs to start earning his keep. but that's just what I saw.

That being said, I really like to fix problems on the ground. Cutter, have you thought about ground driving? You might get some steering and body control, without needing a chiropractor after getting off the horse!

Good job, though, and way to stick with it!

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My only question is...............Cutter listens to Primus or was it Ministry? I can't remember those early years! [Jump] LOL

Cutter is doing exactly what needs to be done to fix the problem. You have to be as light as you can be BUT as heavy as you need to be. Sometimes you have to get heavy before you can get light.

There is no amount of feeding carrots and flexing to get this pony's shoulders and body under control.

This example is why we get paid to ride your horses. We have been around the block and understand what "BODY CONTROL" means.

Sorry if anyone is offended but I have just went through a day of this. Too many clients that don't understand that "BODY CONTROL" is the foundation of EVERYTHING!!! Why is your horse barn sour? Buddy Sour? Running you to the gate? Etc....Etc.....

FIX the body! Hips and Shoulders and have them follow their nose!!!!!!!!!!!

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My only question is...............Cutter listens to Primus or was it Ministry? I can't remember those early years! [Jump] LOL

Cutter is doing exactly what needs to be done to fix the problem. You have to be as light as you can be BUT as heavy as you need to be. Sometimes you have to get heavy before you can get light.

There is no amount of feeding carrots and flexing to get this pony's shoulders and body under control.

This example is why we get paid to ride your horses. We have been around the block and understand what "BODY CONTROL" means.

Sorry if anyone is offended but I have just went through a day of this. Too many clients that don't understand that "BODY CONTROL" is the foundation of EVERYTHING!!! Why is your horse barn sour? Buddy Sour? Running you to the gate? Etc....Etc.....

FIX the body! Hips and Shoulders and have them follow their nose!!!!!!!!!!!

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I certainly don't think babying or loving on this horse would make the necessary changes - that I agree with. I certainly think you are a good rider and obviously have a great seat. However, I do think what was being asked of him was unfair.

When a horse does dangerous behavior like bucking, yes a good yank or kick would be appropriate. But only immediately after the behavior.

I also agree with MizParker, in that ground work for this horse would probably be very beneficial. A horse who has to totally relearn the basics of being a good riding horse needs to learn from the ground up, one step at a time.

I believe there are other methods that would have gotten him to soften to your aids faster than muscling him around. And a horse with no steering and no brakes shouldn't be cantering.

I commend you on riding through his antics, I simply disagree with your methods in this instance. As I said, I previously have always liked your posts.

And just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I can't ride or am uneducated.

ETA: There IS a middle ground between yanking and carrots that can be used 90% of the time.

[ 07-18-2008, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: pegasus431 ]

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I certainly don't think babying or loving on this horse would make the necessary changes - that I agree with. I certainly think you are a good rider and obviously have a great seat. However, I do think what was being asked of him was unfair.

When a horse does dangerous behavior like bucking, yes a good yank or kick would be appropriate. But only immediately after the behavior.

I also agree with MizParker, in that ground work for this horse would probably be very beneficial. A horse who has to totally relearn the basics of being a good riding horse needs to learn from the ground up, one step at a time.

I believe there are other methods that would have gotten him to soften to your aids faster than muscling him around. And a horse with no steering and no brakes shouldn't be cantering.

I commend you on riding through his antics, I simply disagree with your methods in this instance. As I said, I previously have always liked your posts.

And just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I can't ride or am uneducated.

ETA: There IS a middle ground between yanking and carrots that can be used 90% of the time.

[ 07-18-2008, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: pegasus431 ]

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LOL thanks Miz. Yes actually I bitted him up and drove him today. The first two rides I felt like I could work through his problems without that but after this ride I felt like it was necessary. It really helped. When I got on him he was pretty relaxed, and I went right to working the mechanical cow to give him something to concentrate on. He was great.

Now to the haters: I noticed the first video has twice as many views as the others. So you watch half the first video and make a judgement? What the heck? So you missed the part where I get the point across and then ease up on him???? [Duh]

For those who are interested in developing an eye, I will tell you something about timing. When you are on a stiff resistant horse, getting him better is about timing and feel. I ask the horse for a bend by setting my body in the correct position, and leading his nose. I give a light feel, when I feel him brace I bump him off the pressure right at the moment I feel the brace, and then I release and go back to just leading the nose. Same with the ribs. I ask for him to give through the ribcage with a bit of calf. When he ridges up against my calf, I kick from my knee down to get him off my leg. Then I go back to riding forward. I suppose these things aren't evident to people. Lots of people would get on a horse like this and feel his stiffness and resistance and automatically get stiff themselves and get into panic mode. Their backs would get stiff and they would get on the muscle. Then the fight would be much much bigger. The key is to stay soft and supple and always riding forward, even when the horse is doing what he can to try and evade.

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LOL thanks Miz. Yes actually I bitted him up and drove him today. The first two rides I felt like I could work through his problems without that but after this ride I felt like it was necessary. It really helped. When I got on him he was pretty relaxed, and I went right to working the mechanical cow to give him something to concentrate on. He was great.

Now to the haters: I noticed the first video has twice as many views as the others. So you watch half the first video and make a judgement? What the heck? So you missed the part where I get the point across and then ease up on him???? [Duh]

For those who are interested in developing an eye, I will tell you something about timing. When you are on a stiff resistant horse, getting him better is about timing and feel. I ask the horse for a bend by setting my body in the correct position, and leading his nose. I give a light feel, when I feel him brace I bump him off the pressure right at the moment I feel the brace, and then I release and go back to just leading the nose. Same with the ribs. I ask for him to give through the ribcage with a bit of calf. When he ridges up against my calf, I kick from my knee down to get him off my leg. Then I go back to riding forward. I suppose these things aren't evident to people. Lots of people would get on a horse like this and feel his stiffness and resistance and automatically get stiff themselves and get into panic mode. Their backs would get stiff and they would get on the muscle. Then the fight would be much much bigger. The key is to stay soft and supple and always riding forward, even when the horse is doing what he can to try and evade.

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Wrangler it was Ministry [big Grin]

Pegasus, so you agree getting after the horse after he bucks is what you would do... well that is what I did. For about 5 minutes or so. Then as I felt him start to ease up, I did too. As far as the doubling...so what is more productive...letting a horse run stiff and tense until he's tired, or use a technique to get him thinking about slowing down and listening to his rider? If you think I was muscling him around then you missed the entire point of the video. All this horse has ever known is how to be muscled around. It is his default setting. What I was doing was getting him OFF the muscle.

As far as what I think of your riding, I have no reference to make a judgement. I have never seen you ride. You have every right to disagree with the way I handled this horse. I just hope for your sake that you never have to ride one like him then. Or if you do, that you have the resources to take nine million years to get something across that could be gotten across quickly so that real work can start.

This horse has had a lot of groundwork and a lot of easy work already and look where it's gotten him. I have 30 days to get him to the point where he won't break any more of his owner's bones. Sorry if that offends you pegasus but that is reality. Perhaps if you think that he shouldn't be cantering yet you can send the owner $1800 for two additional months.

Wrangler. oh lord I should have remembered the big stink that happened with your resistant horse post. Why do I do this?

[ 07-18-2008, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: cutter123 ]

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