cutter123

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Wrangler it was Ministry [big Grin]

Pegasus, so you agree getting after the horse after he bucks is what you would do... well that is what I did. For about 5 minutes or so. Then as I felt him start to ease up, I did too. As far as the doubling...so what is more productive...letting a horse run stiff and tense until he's tired, or use a technique to get him thinking about slowing down and listening to his rider? If you think I was muscling him around then you missed the entire point of the video. All this horse has ever known is how to be muscled around. It is his default setting. What I was doing was getting him OFF the muscle.

As far as what I think of your riding, I have no reference to make a judgement. I have never seen you ride. You have every right to disagree with the way I handled this horse. I just hope for your sake that you never have to ride one like him then. Or if you do, that you have the resources to take nine million years to get something across that could be gotten across quickly so that real work can start.

This horse has had a lot of groundwork and a lot of easy work already and look where it's gotten him. I have 30 days to get him to the point where he won't break any more of his owner's bones. Sorry if that offends you pegasus but that is reality. Perhaps if you think that he shouldn't be cantering yet you can send the owner $1800 for two additional months.

Wrangler. oh lord I should have remembered the big stink that happened with your resistant horse post. Why do I do this?

[ 07-18-2008, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: cutter123 ]

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quote:

Originally posted by cutter123:

Wrangler. oh lord I should have remembered the big stink that happened with your resistant horse post. Why do I do this?

You do this for the benefit of others, even if there are "haters" in the crowd. You're giving me a chance to get a visual on the horse, without my novice butt in the saddle. Which in this case, I appreciate. I sure as heck wouldn't be so calm atop a brute like him. Please continue with the updates, I'm enjoying the in depth discussion, everything you've said so far makes sense.

[ 07-18-2008, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Running_Free ]

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quote:

Originally posted by cutter123:

Wrangler. oh lord I should have remembered the big stink that happened with your resistant horse post. Why do I do this?

You do this for the benefit of others, even if there are "haters" in the crowd. You're giving me a chance to get a visual on the horse, without my novice butt in the saddle. Which in this case, I appreciate. I sure as heck wouldn't be so calm atop a brute like him. Please continue with the updates, I'm enjoying the in depth discussion, everything you've said so far makes sense.

[ 07-18-2008, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Running_Free ]

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Thanks Running-Free! [smile]

I expect that I will have a much better video to share by next week, documenting this horse's turnaround.

I figured some people would get something out of this.

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Thanks Running-Free! [smile]

I expect that I will have a much better video to share by next week, documenting this horse's turnaround.

I figured some people would get something out of this.

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5 minutes later, that horse would have had NO idea that he was still being punished for bucking. They simply don't think that way.

You have obviously gotten upset and defensive about all this and are twisting words.

I never said anything about letting him run stiff and tense until he got tired. I too, would use a technique to slow and relax him. I just wouldn't have used the same technique. That's it. I simply disagree with you. I'm not trying to attack you, as you seem to feel.

As for not cantering yet, if you have only just gotten him it is not unreasonable. If you can get the desired result at the walk and trot first, you will have a much better shot at getting it at the canter quickly. Speed only adds to a horse's anxiety and tenseness. Did you actually promise that you would have this horse totally fixed in 30 days?

I do have experience with difficult, stiff, tense, problem, rearing, bucking, etc etc etc horses. I've dealt with them before, and I'm sure I'll deal with them again. And I never said that an alternative way had to be slow, like 9 million years long.

I realize you may have no reference of my riding or training abilities. Though you seem to not have needed one, since you already assumed that everyone who said something negative about your videos couldn't ride a horse like that and had an uneducated view.

Your way is not the only way.

Glad to hear you ground drove him and it went well.

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5 minutes later, that horse would have had NO idea that he was still being punished for bucking. They simply don't think that way.

You have obviously gotten upset and defensive about all this and are twisting words.

I never said anything about letting him run stiff and tense until he got tired. I too, would use a technique to slow and relax him. I just wouldn't have used the same technique. That's it. I simply disagree with you. I'm not trying to attack you, as you seem to feel.

As for not cantering yet, if you have only just gotten him it is not unreasonable. If you can get the desired result at the walk and trot first, you will have a much better shot at getting it at the canter quickly. Speed only adds to a horse's anxiety and tenseness. Did you actually promise that you would have this horse totally fixed in 30 days?

I do have experience with difficult, stiff, tense, problem, rearing, bucking, etc etc etc horses. I've dealt with them before, and I'm sure I'll deal with them again. And I never said that an alternative way had to be slow, like 9 million years long.

I realize you may have no reference of my riding or training abilities. Though you seem to not have needed one, since you already assumed that everyone who said something negative about your videos couldn't ride a horse like that and had an uneducated view.

Your way is not the only way.

Glad to hear you ground drove him and it went well.

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Okay let me attempt to explain this better...

I never punished him for bucking, now that I am trying to conceptualize it and thinking about this more. What was happening is he ran off and leaped and hopped, and I brought him under control. I then rode him forward and bent him around. I did it as agressively as he needed to get the point across. As long as he was being stiff and bracy and hoppy, I kept this up. As he eased up and relaxed, I did too. I am not upset or defensive, I am simply attempting to explain since you seem to require explaining. This is not personal, pegasus. I dont' see any videos of you riding any problem horses so I have no judgement to make about what you do and do not know.

I didn't promise anything. There are no promises in riding. 30 days is all I have because that is all she is leaving him here for.

I'm not assuming anything. What people say lets me know if they have an uneducated eye or not.

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Okay let me attempt to explain this better...

I never punished him for bucking, now that I am trying to conceptualize it and thinking about this more. What was happening is he ran off and leaped and hopped, and I brought him under control. I then rode him forward and bent him around. I did it as agressively as he needed to get the point across. As long as he was being stiff and bracy and hoppy, I kept this up. As he eased up and relaxed, I did too. I am not upset or defensive, I am simply attempting to explain since you seem to require explaining. This is not personal, pegasus. I dont' see any videos of you riding any problem horses so I have no judgement to make about what you do and do not know.

I didn't promise anything. There are no promises in riding. 30 days is all I have because that is all she is leaving him here for.

I'm not assuming anything. What people say lets me know if they have an uneducated eye or not.

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This horse's problem happens at a lope. How many countless threads have we seen like that? "My horse is good at a walk and a trot but then he bucks me off at a lope." Walking and trotting is good and I do a lot of that to get him supple. However, to address his issues, I have to lope and then push him through the resistance.

When his neck turns inside out and he tosses his head, I bump it back down.

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This horse's problem happens at a lope. How many countless threads have we seen like that? "My horse is good at a walk and a trot but then he bucks me off at a lope." Walking and trotting is good and I do a lot of that to get him supple. However, to address his issues, I have to lope and then push him through the resistance.

When his neck turns inside out and he tosses his head, I bump it back down.

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This is horse training folks. There not all Black Beauty.

Cutter wouldn't be as successful as she is if she wasn't doing something right.

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This is horse training folks. There not all Black Beauty.

Cutter wouldn't be as successful as she is if she wasn't doing something right.

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It's a discipline thing, too. I wouldn't sit my horse down and roll her over her hocks, because that isn't anything I need a dressage horse doing. You do just that, because that's what this horse needs to do in order to be successful at his job.

I'm guessing that's where a lot of pegasus' methodology differs.

Speaking of which.. pegasus, you've mentioned a few times on this thread that you would be doing this differently. Why don't you lay out for us what you would do? As a little challenge, try not to reference the points that you feel are negative about cutter123's ride, and instead focus on what you would have done to correct the problems that arose.

I think this can be an interesting dicussion instead of a battle of opinions [smile]

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It's a discipline thing, too. I wouldn't sit my horse down and roll her over her hocks, because that isn't anything I need a dressage horse doing. You do just that, because that's what this horse needs to do in order to be successful at his job.

I'm guessing that's where a lot of pegasus' methodology differs.

Speaking of which.. pegasus, you've mentioned a few times on this thread that you would be doing this differently. Why don't you lay out for us what you would do? As a little challenge, try not to reference the points that you feel are negative about cutter123's ride, and instead focus on what you would have done to correct the problems that arose.

I think this can be an interesting dicussion instead of a battle of opinions [smile]

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Ya know what, as someone said before this is horse training. Its not always pretty...but I feel it takes a true horseman to ride it out and get past the massive problems the horse has.

Sometimes you can't baby a horse through something and sometimes you can't find that middle ground. If a horse has never been taught to give and only been taught to fight then you have to just take what it knows and twist it in your favor to achieve what you want. I feel like that's what Cutter is doing... She's being as light as she can and as tough as she needs to in order to get through to the horse.

Although, I would love to hear what Pegasus would do differently with this particular horse.

[ 07-18-2008, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: KK ]

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Ya know what, as someone said before this is horse training. Its not always pretty...but I feel it takes a true horseman to ride it out and get past the massive problems the horse has.

Sometimes you can't baby a horse through something and sometimes you can't find that middle ground. If a horse has never been taught to give and only been taught to fight then you have to just take what it knows and twist it in your favor to achieve what you want. I feel like that's what Cutter is doing... She's being as light as she can and as tough as she needs to in order to get through to the horse.

Although, I would love to hear what Pegasus would do differently with this particular horse.

[ 07-18-2008, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: KK ]

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I never post on these threads - but thought I would give it a shot [Cool] .

First of all - yes did watch all three videos. I have started horses before and retrained problems, yes I have ridden out worse than this (as I am sure you have). I have also not ridden out worse that this on occasion (as I am sure you have as well [Wink] )

I am not a professional trainer and most likely have less time in the saddle than you (have a full time job these days and only ride 2-3 a day during the week usually unless it's a light week a work).

Actually for a really messed up, dangerous horse there is some good stuff here... Not enough to go on that this horse fits that description (just dumping his rider once or twice 'cause they can't correct him the first time doesn't qualify.

With a few caveats - how long has the horse been under saddle? For an older horse that should know better some roughness is probably needed. For a baby that doesn't understand - I would definately ride softer with my hands and quite after the second success to take it up again the next day.

I would correct differently in some places but then I ride jumpers and have a bit of a different focus on how I want a horse to give to pressure. I did spend a year or so retraining cheap auction horses into safe trail mounts (often rather exciting) I think somewhere I read that you used to ride english so you probably understand this. I thought you did a nice job riding him through some of his issues.

What I see as not so good or I would try [big Grin] to do differently...

Yanking on his face to get him to give at the halt and in motion (less so) - way too much sudden jerking for my tastes - last thing I need is a horse that is afraid of his mouth as I need to ride on contact. Yeah I would have been correcting with my hands but more with the legs and seat I find jerking the face hard like that for me gives the release at the wrong moment. I also don't use backing up as a correction (or only very rarely).

On the first bolt you were balanced off his face the whole way - probably took you by surprise but I find this will make the jumps and bolts worse - although I liked how you kept him moving forward and rode out the jumping around rather than yanking him up and rewarding him by stopping.

Not enough reward or too slow of a give on several occasions when the horse 'got it' with both hands and legs. A couple times I thought - that looks really nice and then you were on the another correction before the horse got a reward (i.e simply releasing pressure, short walk break etc)

That's my thoughts (worth what you paid for them [Wink] )

You seem to get some good results. The only real test of course is how the horse goes on the next couple rides.

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I never post on these threads - but thought I would give it a shot [Cool] .

First of all - yes did watch all three videos. I have started horses before and retrained problems, yes I have ridden out worse than this (as I am sure you have). I have also not ridden out worse that this on occasion (as I am sure you have as well [Wink] )

I am not a professional trainer and most likely have less time in the saddle than you (have a full time job these days and only ride 2-3 a day during the week usually unless it's a light week a work).

Actually for a really messed up, dangerous horse there is some good stuff here... Not enough to go on that this horse fits that description (just dumping his rider once or twice 'cause they can't correct him the first time doesn't qualify.

With a few caveats - how long has the horse been under saddle? For an older horse that should know better some roughness is probably needed. For a baby that doesn't understand - I would definately ride softer with my hands and quite after the second success to take it up again the next day.

I would correct differently in some places but then I ride jumpers and have a bit of a different focus on how I want a horse to give to pressure. I did spend a year or so retraining cheap auction horses into safe trail mounts (often rather exciting) I think somewhere I read that you used to ride english so you probably understand this. I thought you did a nice job riding him through some of his issues.

What I see as not so good or I would try [big Grin] to do differently...

Yanking on his face to get him to give at the halt and in motion (less so) - way too much sudden jerking for my tastes - last thing I need is a horse that is afraid of his mouth as I need to ride on contact. Yeah I would have been correcting with my hands but more with the legs and seat I find jerking the face hard like that for me gives the release at the wrong moment. I also don't use backing up as a correction (or only very rarely).

On the first bolt you were balanced off his face the whole way - probably took you by surprise but I find this will make the jumps and bolts worse - although I liked how you kept him moving forward and rode out the jumping around rather than yanking him up and rewarding him by stopping.

Not enough reward or too slow of a give on several occasions when the horse 'got it' with both hands and legs. A couple times I thought - that looks really nice and then you were on the another correction before the horse got a reward (i.e simply releasing pressure, short walk break etc)

That's my thoughts (worth what you paid for them [Wink] )

You seem to get some good results. The only real test of course is how the horse goes on the next couple rides.

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Wow. I haven't really posted on here in three weeks and now you have me posting twice in less than 24 hrs. Cool. I like this discussion, it brings up interesting points.

First, that Cutter is "yanking" at the horse's mouth. I disagree. I see sharp bumps, that are necessary because she has to break through resistance. The horse is NOT responding to her light cues. She is doing the correct process to get a light horse. She does ask nicely first. When he ignores or flat out refuses, she doesn't nag him, she MAKES him do what she asked. Horses can lean on steady pressure all day long. They can't resist bumping. That is why bumping works.

For a fun exercise, go out in your pasture, and just push against your youngest horse, he will most likely lean back into that pressure, babies are really good for trying this exercise. Then, try poking him repeatedly with a stiffened finger...I bet he moves away. Same principle here. She absolutely cannot give him anything to lean on...he already does that, and it has produced dangerous results.

I am glad that there are people out there who have horses who don't need this kind of riding. I also know there are different methods for correcting this kind of horse. However, those methods all have a similar principle. The horse does not win. Ever. He must comply with all requests, and if he does not, life must suck for him until he mends his ways.

Cutter is trying to make a silk purse here, out of the whole pig. It isn't easy, because her timeline is dictated by a client, not by what the horse actually needs. As an assistant trainer, I see that a lot. I have seen horses that should stay in training for at least four months (if not longer!) taken home at the 30 day mark against the recommendations of the trainer. Two weeks later, we hear that someone got bucked off the horse, and why didn't the trainer do a better job? Heh, in 30 days you can put good habits on a regular horse, but the criminally minded take more time to reform. You can't always fix the pigs in 30 days, but it looks like Cutter has made a good start here.

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Wow. I haven't really posted on here in three weeks and now you have me posting twice in less than 24 hrs. Cool. I like this discussion, it brings up interesting points.

First, that Cutter is "yanking" at the horse's mouth. I disagree. I see sharp bumps, that are necessary because she has to break through resistance. The horse is NOT responding to her light cues. She is doing the correct process to get a light horse. She does ask nicely first. When he ignores or flat out refuses, she doesn't nag him, she MAKES him do what she asked. Horses can lean on steady pressure all day long. They can't resist bumping. That is why bumping works.

For a fun exercise, go out in your pasture, and just push against your youngest horse, he will most likely lean back into that pressure, babies are really good for trying this exercise. Then, try poking him repeatedly with a stiffened finger...I bet he moves away. Same principle here. She absolutely cannot give him anything to lean on...he already does that, and it has produced dangerous results.

I am glad that there are people out there who have horses who don't need this kind of riding. I also know there are different methods for correcting this kind of horse. However, those methods all have a similar principle. The horse does not win. Ever. He must comply with all requests, and if he does not, life must suck for him until he mends his ways.

Cutter is trying to make a silk purse here, out of the whole pig. It isn't easy, because her timeline is dictated by a client, not by what the horse actually needs. As an assistant trainer, I see that a lot. I have seen horses that should stay in training for at least four months (if not longer!) taken home at the 30 day mark against the recommendations of the trainer. Two weeks later, we hear that someone got bucked off the horse, and why didn't the trainer do a better job? Heh, in 30 days you can put good habits on a regular horse, but the criminally minded take more time to reform. You can't always fix the pigs in 30 days, but it looks like Cutter has made a good start here.

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Boy, you really know how to start a post Jessie! I want you to know I went out on a limb and watched the videos here at work. If I get fired, it's your fault.

The ONLY time I saw her JERKING on the horse's mouth was in the begining of the first video, when the horse bolted and bucked. Then she had her hands full of too much horse. It took her about 5 minutes to ride the "bolt, buck, hop" attitude out of him, when he finally was ready to start work. THEN she was able to start working on the rollbacks and getting him lighter.

As in relationship to South, I can see a lot of similar moves, especially after the rollbacks, when you ask for circles and the front end stops moving, same thing here.

I am reminded that our rollbacks are different. I ask for a move off the leg, an arc and a pocket, then roll back. This might be giving her too much room to the fence so she CAN whip that hind end around.

I'll try tonight keeping her closer in. Her flexability has some room and need to grow as well. She wants to be stiff. But she is already making progress on that.

Thanks for the vids and the entertainment with the post! [Razz]

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Boy, you really know how to start a post Jessie! I want you to know I went out on a limb and watched the videos here at work. If I get fired, it's your fault.

The ONLY time I saw her JERKING on the horse's mouth was in the begining of the first video, when the horse bolted and bucked. Then she had her hands full of too much horse. It took her about 5 minutes to ride the "bolt, buck, hop" attitude out of him, when he finally was ready to start work. THEN she was able to start working on the rollbacks and getting him lighter.

As in relationship to South, I can see a lot of similar moves, especially after the rollbacks, when you ask for circles and the front end stops moving, same thing here.

I am reminded that our rollbacks are different. I ask for a move off the leg, an arc and a pocket, then roll back. This might be giving her too much room to the fence so she CAN whip that hind end around.

I'll try tonight keeping her closer in. Her flexability has some room and need to grow as well. She wants to be stiff. But she is already making progress on that.

Thanks for the vids and the entertainment with the post! [Razz]

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Dang, this will take some time to get used to. :blink:

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