cutter123

SpottedTApps; a video for you

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Cutter-thanks, the feeling is mutual. For those that have been involved in horses, showing competively, it's easy to recognize who 'walks the talk"

Spotted Apps-Jack is quite amazing. He was up here in Canada, taking a working cowhorse clinic with Les Timmons-one of the best in the business, and while here, also put on a clinic that I attended

Actually, he was the agent that sold High Sign Nugget to Jim Dobler, and after riding High Sign Nugget, stated that he felt the most like his sire High Sign.

Jack gives me hope, for if he can ride as he does at his age, then I am determined to continue on after my knee replacement this Dec.!

The mare Ms High Test must be a different mare than the World champion daughter of High Sign Nugget, named High Tess. She is a few spot leopard

I believe Jack is ciurrrently riding some of High Sign Nuggets offsring that were sold aND doing well with them-I'm A Jo Lena is one, and I believe a full sibling of hers also.

I'm sure you have seen Less ride at the ApHC Worlds , where he has earned several championships on both High Sigh Nugget and his offspring. Lena's High Heat, High Tess, High Limit, just to name a few. ( High Limit ,also shown by Cody Saperigia, Olympic metal winner in reining

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LOL skjotta, that was a really good analysis of this horse's personality! hehehehe

he is just like that. I have been on several Dash For Cash grandsons/daughters, and they all have that sort of personality. They work really good and have a lot of heart...once you get through to them past all the silliness. In this poor guy's case, his silliness was never channelled early on. He's getting better though! I thought I had linked them in this thread on page three or something...I'll go back and check.

Smilie, I know some people who have returned to riding after knee replacements. My stepmother had one as well and still is very active. She is not a rider (never was) but she hikes and does yoga consistently. I wish you the best of luck with that!

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RT, thanks for the "real feel" clarification. I must say I did take offense to that when I read your first post. It sounds rude, like you are insinuating that neither me nor my trainer (by association) has real feel. As for the video, thanks for sharing it, yes that is a hand. He was enough of a hand to NOT ask that horse to move forward with him sitting on it or those people would have definitely gotten to see a big wreck. He did just what he could do, effectively and quickly. It can't be compared to what was happening with my horse, however. Totally different scenario. I think I get what your comparison was... just that the things that made that man such a good hand with an obviously wild and resistant horse was tiny little nuances of timing and position that might not be clear to everyone. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's the bugger about forums, email, etc. Even with smilies and what not, you still sometimes don't get the right feeling across. That's why I put that reply out there as well. I didn't want any doubt left, or drama. I'm pretty much fed up with drama any more in life. it's non-productive, time-wasting crap that really does little more but extract precious common ground from the trench already separating people. People spend so much time feeding off of it, driving themselves off of it, on either side of the fence. And to reiterate, the last person qualified to judge anyone's feel or skills is me. LOL. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. It's why I do so few of those videos anymore, and why I do so little posting on here. Just don't have the qualifications, and it's not likely I'll ever have them. And I'm totally fine with that, because that leaves plenty of other people to be able to offer up what they have to offer based on their qualifications. :D

There's a lot of similarities in what Linfoot's situation was and yours, though, just from what I see. You both are working with horses. Both horses have issues. Both horses seem agitated and pretty fairly uncertain. Both horses are in an arena with a human being. Both horses suffer from thousands of years of prey animal breeding. Might just be that it's not as far-flung a comparison as all that. Might be that it is a universe apart, though. It all depends on your viewpoint, I suppose.

Feel, surprisingly enough, is subjective. It's an observation I've made over a few years. Nothing big on the surface, but it really does lie at the heart of the whole "my horse-fu is greater than your horse-fu" debate that seems to bubble up here and elsewhere. Someone sees something they think is quite shocking. Others see it and have no problem with it. What we see as barbaric nowadays, 100 years ago was commonplace and accepted. And some people still think it is acceptable. Look at the Omak Suicide Race. Look at some of the questionable methods certain cultures use to train horses (and not just the charros, folks, it happens on every continent on which you find horses).

And no I am not saying that you and Don are barbarians, nor am I saying anything about anyone else. The only point I am making is that feel, just like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. And I can't change what is in the eye of that beholder, so why try? If that person changes their mind, or never changes their mind, it can't come from some external force. It has to come from inside. Otherwise it's not lasting change, it's just chasing a fad. That change has to occur from that person consciously, and bravely, weighing their life's experience against their beliefs and having the courage to adjust them or hold them firm accordingly.

So seeing as that has to be their action, I don't really feel there's much need to try to argue a point, debate endlessly, stick out my tongue and say nyah, nyah, nyah, or hold my breath until I turn blue and pass out. Doesn't do me any good to do that, and life's far too short to spend time and effort on that, as opposed to spending time and effort on trying to make everything in your life return a dividend.

Because that's what horse training really is. Investing in something that will pay an appropriate dividend. And the interesting part is when you are doing the training, you're the broker and the client all at once. So the only one you really screw or reward is yourself.

My reason for posting that video wasn't really meant to be a comparison though. Bayfilly asked for examples of how other people would handle this horse. I'd like to think I would have tried to handle him very similarly to Linfoot's basic principals, shown with this horse. Does that mean I think you handled this horse correctly or incorrectly?

Well, that would involve my opinion. And my opinion is mine. I decided some time ago it's best to not give away that part of me. No one seems to truly profit when they do. Suggestions are one thing, but those opinions, well, they're something else all together.

And besides, it's not my horse to train. It's really none of my business, unless it was made my business. Which it wasn't.

Jack gives me hope, for if he can ride as he does at his age, then I am determined to continue on after my knee replacement this Dec.!

If soldiers who have lost their legs entirely can still ride in hippotherapy programs, you shouldn't have any great shakes recooping from knee surgery and returning to the saddle. Hope your surgery goes well.

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LOL skjotta, that was a really good analysis of this horse's personality! hehehehe

he is just like that. I have been on several Dash For Cash grandsons/daughters, and they all have that sort of personality. They work really good and have a lot of heart...once you get through to them past all the silliness. In this poor guy's case, his silliness was never channelled early on. He's getting better though! I thought I had linked them in this thread on page three or something...I'll go back and check.

Smilie, I know some people who have returned to riding after knee replacements. My stepmother had one as well and still is very active. She is not a rider (never was) but she hikes and does yoga consistently. I wish you the best of luck with that!

i have a gelding like that (not related to this one though ;) ) so i recognize the signs... he will test all new riders, and he always reaches a point where he throws a fit... usually in the form of an imaginary line on the road that he WILL NOT cross. once he is pushed past whatever causes the fit, he is fine though. but it is not always too pretty to watch. he is hubbys favorite mountain ride horse.

i think the reason why he is such a drama queen is that he is just too smart for his own good. i can see him thinking and calculating, and that is not always a good thing ;)

glad to hear that this guy is doing better.

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RT, I guess when I asked for videos, I was sort of hoping those that disliked what they saw would come forward and show some of their videos off.

I see some differences in the horse on that video and the one Jessie has in her barn, mostly that the horse in the video that you posted is blatantly unhandled, and the horse Jessie has has been poorly handled. An unhandled horse has less baggage and is more of a blank slate, if you will. The poorly handled horse has a baggage that needs to be unloaded to start to reprogram. That sort of thing is like the "bloatware" that you get on laptops. Once you get rid of it, your laptop works better!

Jessie is at a show this weekend, putting her skills to use and will be back Sunday night to continue posting.

Edited by Bayfilly13

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I guess what I am trying to accomplish with "feel" is different from that Billy guy in RT's video. I saw a guy tippy toe around a horse and slide up on his back when he was in freeze mode. When he pulled that halter off, the camera man cut the scene off and it started back up with him doing somewhere else. That horse is in a flight mode. He doesn't have a low head set and a soft eye, he hasn't completely accepted the situation. I don't get on their backs if they don't even lead. What's the point. Watch how he's breathing and his body talk. No thanks.

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I agree completely Wrangler. That's why I made the comment about him not asking the horse to move off...I can bet money the horse would take off bucking or even fall over. I didnt' see a guy get a horse relaxed in that video. I just saw a guy use his body to partially sack out a horse, but not to the point where the horse was truely relaxed and accepting, just about halfway there. Not trying to take anything away from Mr Linfoot though.

RT while I agree with much you are saying I find it ironic coming from you, considering, after months and months of me not posting, complaining about posting, saying posting my opinions/methods/etc did no good, you were the one who kept telling me I should, that it was for the greater good of those who wanted to learn, etc. Well don't worry, I took what you said to heart and will no longer be posting, or participating in any "drama." I also will make my youtube account private. Because you're right. It's nobodys business but mine. And your'e also right that I really don't give a flying crap what anyone else thinks of me or my riding.

I know what I can do and so do the horses I ride.

(me and Hal this weekend)

halwatsonville3.jpg

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While I may seem like another bandwagon participant here,..let me clarify that I am NOT,..my only motivation in posting what i am about to share is to help educate where I see a need.

Take it for what it's worth but until you have seen TRUE timing,feel and balance,..you won't recognize it and think because a task got done that this is what you have seen,...

With that in mind,..RT,..I will ask you to please go and get the VHS tape America's Lost Mustangs. It's by National Geographic. Now before you poo poo it because it does in fact feature the methods and talents of Pat Parelli,..I just ask you to ignore the "WHO" of the program and focus on the "WHAT" is being done.

IN watching it,..please watch the differences in the wild mustang that is being worked with,..and then go back and compare it to the horse in Billy's tape.

Turn off the sound and watch the filly mustang only. Watch her face and her reactions when she is finally mounted for the first time. It takes place on day one,..with only a time span of 45 minutes.

Watch how he starts the filly. Note what he uses to calm her and then watch the timing in which he uses to be able to mount her.

Then go back and compare that to what the horse in Billy's tape looks like when HE mounts her.

People want to know what the difference is in force and a horse being accepting of a situation,..well then I can't think of a better way to show it to you than to ask you to watch this.

I will point out some of the differences,..but until you see it you won't truly understand how BIG of a difference there is between "frozen in fear" and allowing something out of fear,..and calm and accepting.

A horse isn't accepting just because they stand still and it is in those differences that the future of that horse and how he /she will perform that makes the difference. Confidence is PARAMOUNT. Without it,..you are doing nothing more than stealing a ride and got lucky you didn't get bucked off.

It's those differences that are the reason we live to ride another day.

Wrangler,..I could not have said it any better but I didn't want RT to feel I was ganging up by simply just agreeing with you and Cutter,..I saw an opportunity here to try to help another horseman learn what I have started to learn that is so valuable and that is to install confidence into a horse's brain so that he doesn't have to use that side of his brain that tells him he is in danger,...like I saw in the video you provided.

There is a HUGE difference in pushing a horse when he is confident,.and pushing a horse who is scared.

I saw no retreat from this video provided in an attempt to save the horse's dignity and give it a chance to learn from the release. It's the release that teaches.

Something I DID see in Cutter's video. She wasn't riding a scared horse. She was having a conversation with a horse who was confident that HIS way was the way to go and she was providing him with other options,and rewarding him with release when he softened.

In this other video,..the horse was never rewarded or given a chance to become soft. He merely forced it to accept with no time to think.

And because of the stary eyes,..the high head and the quick movements the horse gave after dismount,..I know this to be true. An accepting horse will be soft and blinking in the eye,..the neck will be relaxed and bent,..the nose curiously sniffing the feet it has found at it's side,..it's feet and weight moving to balance itself to accept the rider and we would have seen what is commonly referred to as "hooking on" or "joining up" bewteen the horse and the rider. If that horse isn't following him,..or the horse walks away,..such as this horse did,..you didn't accomplish that. A desire from the horse to follow it's new leader.

I didn't need to see any more of this video that was obviously edited in some ways than the moment he mounted to know his timing was off. He should not have mounted until he saw those things from the horse.

Sorry to critique but if you post an example of true timing and feel,..then I expect to see what I have come to recognize,..and I didn't see it with this video.

Cutter,..I can't blame you in your feelings,..but please don't allow this forum to make that decision for you. Allow the expert training you have recieved to decide for you.

If I had allowed the things said to me and about my trainer to decide anything for me,..I wouldn't be here!Instead I continue to get results with the horses I play with and confirm for me everyday what I now know to be truth because the horses I work with(not just my own anymore)confirm it for me as well.

[Huggy]

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I want to watch the videos but I get this message "This is a private video. If you have been sent this video, please make sure you accept the sender's friend request."

Any ideas?

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Hi Shelley, Thank you so much my friend. Great points.

When I said there wasn't any comparison between my video and that one, that is sort of what I meant. In my video...my horse starts out tense, and ends up relaxed.

Really, that was the whole point. Not to steal a ride and "work around" tenseness and resistance, but to be persistent enough to follow through and work THROUGH it until I am out the other side and the resistance is gone. That way, the next time I get on, the horse will have evolved. I think parelli actually has a saying about Persistance, doesn't he? ;)

Smart man. Now THERE is a man with some feel!

Rosaletta, sorry about that. I have re-edited the settings on them and you should be able to view the 3 other vids now, of the "after" ride.

Here's the links again so you don't have to go searching.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g13_vdtXoB4

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mnTS7Sjrl8I

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kcggEp1wRzk

You are right shelley. I will do what I do and when I choose to share I will. I most likely overreacted to something that was not specifically aimed at me anyhow.

Edited by cutter123

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Cutter,..We all are passionate about our love for what we do with our horses and that sometimes makes us a bit sensitive,..especially after making a HUGE breakthrough and someone poo poo's it! They are correct usually in many ways,..and there are other ways to do things,..but the horse never lies. That is where we find the truth amongst the opinions and can usually meet halfway in our assessments. Different horses require different methods and sometimes we get it right and sometimes we don't. What matters is what the horse thinks when we are done,..and that is usually the point where our minds can meet up again.

It's the process during where there seems to be many different views of the same situation.

[Huggy]

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Pegasus had asked these questions on the other thread on the Dressage board. Hastflicka rightfull closed that post. (thank you hast!!! much appreciated. There was no need for a dressage snobs vs. cutter bash fest...it wasn't a learning situation)

Anyway, starting this dialogue with Pegasus runs the risk of opening a Western vs. English bash fest. I in NO WAY want that to happen. If it starts to, I will ask Hast to lock this thread as well. But I felt she deserved answers to her questions so perhaps we can all learn from each other and keep it civil.

Here is what Pegasus said:

(quote) "Cutter, I have a question. And if you would rather me post this on training, I can put it there too.

QUOTE

Some people took offense to my long spurs. Well they are cutting spurs. Get over it. I'm 5'8 and cutting horses generally fall in the 14.1'-14.3' category. This means my legs end past where their bellies end. To be able to cue lightly without pointing my toes down, I need a long shanked spur.

Now, I understand the reason for your spurs, and their length. On a quiet leg, which I do believe you have, they are perfectly appropriate. What I don't understand is the reasoning for wearing them on a green/problem horse. I have always been taught that spurs are for refinement and light cues, as you said. Yet, when you mount a green or problem horse, you generally know that at some point, you might need to give a harder than normal cue. So if you are expecting to have to give some serious kicks (which while you are aiming for refinement, means you aren't there yet with that horse), why have the spurs on? During hard kicks, they could do some damage.

I did watch your newer set of videos when they were posted, and I certainly agree that improvement is obvious. I think it showed that your particular goals for this horse - to have him listen to your aids instead of running through them - are being met. I can still see resistance in his neck and jaw when you pick up both reins, but hopefully you will work through that. I think it is very important to have a horse soft on each side individually before asking him to be soft on both together. But again, I know you don't have much time.

Don't take this the wrong way, but from your (being a successful trainer) point of view, I'm curious about how you consciously handle this type of situation with having a short period of time to do as much as you can. For me, I always concentrate on softness and relaxation. I get it in one thing before moving on to the next. That is how I try to approach every situation and it has succeeded each time. But I have had more time to work with. With your time constraints, you can't always do that. I know you have other horses that are soft and very responsive, so I know you can achieve those results. But for example, if at the end of the 30 days, this horse is still tense in the jaw when he stops or slows, yet immediately performs the action, is that still a success? What is your list of priorities for training? As dressage riders, we follow the training pyramid as best we can, putting rhythm and relaxation first. Do you have something similar? Do you forgo total softness for better control for the owner? Does western riding in general have a guideline like the pyramid or do you have a personal set of goals? I think all basic foundation training should be quite similar, regardless of the intended discipline.

Just a couple questions, don't read anymore into them than that. I'm not trying to imply anything here." (quote)

Hi Pegasus!

First off, about the spurs. I generally have spurs on my boots at all times, whether I use them or not. The exception to this is when starting colts and riding two year olds, until such time as I feel they are ready for me to add spurs. This horse, in my opinion, was ready for spurs, had been ridden with spurs for over a year, and will be ridden with spurs by his owner. He needed to know how to come off a spur. I sure have seen damage done with spurs, both english and western types. I'm not trying to imply one is better than the other. However, with a prince of wales or other type of spur, jabs and pokes can leave dents or tears in the intercostal muscles. On a rowelled spur, like I use, this can also happen with someone just going and jabbing and poking. However, the way I use my spurs takes advantage of the rolling motion of the rowel. It is more of a quick roll up the side. A very effective cue, with minimal damage. Perhaps some people would have chosen to use a crop instead. To each his own. I got the point across in a way that did not leave any damage. Lets leave it at that.

Yes the tension is still there in his neck. It will take some time to replace his old habits of bracy-ness with new habits of soft and giving. I also agree that lateral flexion is necessary as it leads the way for a horse to accept vertical flexion. Hence the circles, and that is also what is happening on the mechanical cow...notice the lateral flexion move there, one rein to go one way in a bending/folding type motion. The cow is good because it gives the horse something to focus on while I am teaching him how to follow his nose and come off my leg. Good for a busy minded horse like this, especially. This horse won't be a cutter but this exercise helps him anyway. As for vertical flexion, this horse needs to know, at this stage of his life, to give to this pressure as well, especially considering where he will go after he is here. I will try to establish as much of it as I can. His musculature in his neck and back make bracing easy for him, as it has been his default setting. Something like that cannot be completely erased in 30 days. My hope is I can start the new habit and teach his rider a bit about perpetuating the new habit.

As far as handling a short period of time situation, that would be my answer. I do as much as I can and as much as I believe the horse can handle. Fortunately, in my situation, I don't generally have to deal with 30 day horses. Most of our horses are here for 3 or more years. We had one mare my trainer started as a 2 year old and was still in the barn in training/showing as a 13 year old. My gelding is 17 and has been here since he was a weanling. Most of the two year olds I am riding right now, not only did I watch them get born, I held their mamas while they were being bred to their daddy, who I also rode and showed for years. However we do get these short term projects in once in a while as well. There is no set schedule; it is a case by case individual feel session based on what we think the horse needs and where he will be after he goes home. I want to give this horse the best chance he can have of learning how to deal with what his job will be... his job will be to carry a really nice well intentioned but impatient and slightly "just do it" type girl around to ropings, a high energy, high precision, high stress sport. Like it or hate it, this is his fate.

As far as tensensess in the face vs body control, I think there is a line between the two I would like to achieve with this horse. Part of his problem, and the root of his tenseness, comes from someone trying to do technical moves like a rollback or a cutting move without regard to body position or softness. He gets in a hurry and stiffens himself. So I am attempting to show him how to do these maneuvers in a more correct way, which I do by how I sit on him and the timing of my requests. From previous experience with this type of bracy horse, I know that the tense jaw/neck will generally start to disappear as the body learns how to do these maneuvers correctly, because he will not feel the need to tense and brace to make the move. My concern is to connect what I do with his face to what his back feet/body are doing. I dont' generally just concentrate on the tenseness in the neck and face. In my opinion, if I get the tensness out of his MIND, (which was achieved on the first videoed ride), then I can get him listening, then I can work on getting the tension out of his body and ribs. The head/neck will follow.

I will consider it a success if I can get this horse as broke and relaxed and moving good as possible within the time he is here. I will consider it a success if I can impart some knowledge onto his owner so she can think about keeping him that way.

As for the training pyramid, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but to me it sure seems like dressage people like to quote that like holy scripture to justify their self righetousness. Nice to quote when the occasion demands but also conveniently forgotten when more earthy demands, like competition, take precidence. I have seen many instances where dressage people forgo the sacred principles of their training pyramid in pursuit of something else. Don't think I'm talking about you; I'm not. I've never seen a horse youve trained. I'm talking more in general.

Western riding doesn't have a tradition of literature or precidents written out by old masters. Stock horse tradidion actually came from the Spanish conquistadores, who of course, studied classical riding in the SPANISH riding school tradition. In this way, we are linked and yes, a foundation is a foundation. Any good trainer, whether he puts it down on paper or has a well defined "plan" or not, knows there is a certain order in which things work best to achieve the best result. My trainer has never read a book in his life. Yet when he talks to his non pros about physics and movement and training, you would probably recognize a lot of what he says as being in accordance with your pyramid. I dont' think I am as deviant from the pyramid as you seem to think. You must take into consideration that this video was not an example of BUILDING a foundation on a young, green horse. This was a different ballgame. Take for example a wire coat hanger, trying to straighten it. Well if you just take the bended part and straighten it it will not be straight. You have to actually bend it the other way to get it to end up straight. I was knocking some bad habits out of this horse. A new good foundation can't begin to be built upon the wreck of the old one. The old one has to be cleared away first. Let's just pretend for a minute that this horse was going to be here for six months or more. I think I would still have had the confrontation with him right off the bat. Then got to work rebuilding the foundation in a slow easy way.

Do we forgo softness for better control for the owner? Well that is a tricky question... I don't think there is that much of a difference between softness and control. A horse that isn't soft or giving or willing wont' really be controllable. We might have different opiinions of what is considered soft. I want a horse listening to my body...I want to be riding his back feet, not his face. I will always consider the owner when riding the horse, however. For example, I got on my old horse the a while back at a show and schooled her before her new owner went in to show. Well oops I got her moving so good she was ready to go mark a 75 and her new owner took her in there and just about fell off. It wasn't really the right thing to do. Probably a smaller, more controlled move would be better for this lady at this point in her cutting career.

There are differences in Western training that probably make no sense to a dressage rider. ESPECIALLY cattle work. We could get into that if you would like to have a discussion. I would like to know the reasoning behind some of what you do, as well. For exapmple, IronBessFlints picture of her trainer she posted. When I look at that picture, I do see a nice horse going nice, but I see a rider who is leaning her upper body way far back behind vertical and keeping a very taut grip on the reins, using her body weight to push that horse in the bridle. If I rode like that my trainer would have a total connipiton and yank me off the horse I was on. However, the horse in the picture doens't look to be being ridden incorrectly; he looks soft and going foward nice. He doesn't look ready to do any cutting, ;) but nice nonetheless.

I would love to hear more of your philosophies if you would like to share. Thanks for the discussion.

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I would like to add to this discussion a bit, even though your condemnation of dressage riders as "self righteous . . .snobs" does irk me a little, and lowers your professionalism in my eyes, which is, of course, inconsequential.

Here's my question:

Do you think that 30 days training will be enough for him to behave properly for his owner, or do you think he'll try and revert back to his old habits once he's learned he can?

I appreciate that you do not concentrate solely on the head and neck, and are more interested in what's going on behind, More people need to think like this in ever discipline.

Oh, and should you feel the need to get your hackles up, I have posted a video of my riding a young horse with baggage, and also I have never bashed you or anything of the sort.

And I don't think Ironbessflint's pic is the best use of dressage example. I saw the same as you.

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Kiss The Sky,

I certainly did not mean to imply ALL dressage riders are snobs or self righeous. I only meant it in the way that my topic was taken over to the dressage board (without my knowledge) for the sole purpose of making it into a cutter bash fest. You didn't participate in that fest so I certainly wouldnt' consider you a snob! :)

I have more than once been on COTH and other boards where the consensus of dressage riders towards cutters and other western riders is no less harsh. It's bad on both sides. Anyway, I apologize for having my hackles up, but perhaps you can understand why. I certainly do not judge dressage riders or think they are all snobs. I have the utmost respect for anyone who dedicates their life to the pursuit of horsemanship, no matter the discipline. I understand how hard it is, really, no matter what the discipline.

To answer your question, No, I don't think 30 days will be enough. He's had over a year and a half of improper riding to make these habits and 30 days isnt' near enough time for him to be over them. He will most likely revert back because he will once again be being ridden with muscle. However, I don't have a choice in the matter.

In a perfect world (barring the fact that in a perfect world he never would have these problems), this horse would stay here much longer, and his owner would start taking regular lessons to learn how to ride more with feel and her body, so she could help this horse learn how to move better.

Thanks for the clarification on IronBessFlint's picture. I did not want to pick on her (though she had no problem judging me) or her trainer, I was merely curious.

I sure appreciate your contribution. I would enjoy seeing your video.

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Thanks cutter, I had origionally posted the video on the dressage thread, but I understand if you don't want to go back there, so I can put it here too.

COTH dressage posters scare the living daylights out of me. I completely understand why you are on the defensive.

As per my question with the 30 days- my trainer took in a horse with a similar situation as you: misbehaving youngster, will hurt owner, limited funds and money. The owner could only afford two weeks training, and the horse seemed much worse off then yours (think rearing up whilst lunging, and perfectly coordinating that with a good yank and bolt, bolting for the doors when done riding, no regard for self presevation, being a bronc, refusing to move when flat out whipped, etc). He was able to wtc at the end of two weeks, but was in no way completely reliable for a professional, much less the ammie owner. Situations like this sadden me, b/c we both knew 5 minutes with the owner on and he be back to his old tricks. This wasn't even a dressage horse, she only wanted to hack and do trails. He had all this mastered, and he was only a long 3!

Anyway, here's this guy, quick rundown (I'm off to ride him, got a clinic with the Spanish Riding School instructor, on him! Funny you should mention that in your previous post!)

4yo, sent to be broke by cowboy last fall after showing bronco tendencies, two months there, owner rode through spring and was generally well behaved I surmised, but she was intimidated by him. Did not ride him in the month preceding my purchase of him, and would not let anyone actually get on him to try him out, thinking it would be too much of a liability. This is the 4th ride. First ride was re-breaking, then walking on a lunge, second was learning to go forward and steering, 3rd was introducing a quiet canter, and then this one, where it all came together. This is about 3 weeks ago. He's still tense while mounting, but much better under saddle.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x63hk7_re...y11-034_animals

Oh, I feel your pain on little horses. I'm 5'11, this guy is about 15.3-16, and luckily I can jack my stirrups up.

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Thanks for posting the link, KissTheSky. Nice video. I think we are pretty much on the same page [smiley Wavey]

I commend you and your trainer for getting through to that horse to the point where you could have such a nice ride on him. I can certainly see how your centered and expert command on him are helping him learn how to go forward relaxed. I'm also pretty sure most people would have thought that the initial "getting through" to him to get him over his horrible habits was not exactly pretty. (I'm just making an assumption)

So you are still riding him, now in lessons? Was your trainer able to convince his owner that he needed a more experienced rider for longer? Have a good ride on him.

Yes, situations like that and many others sadden me every day. I dont' know if anyone who helps others with horses ever gets away from it. I have zillions of stories about unsuitable horses paired with owners who coudln't or wouldnl't see the reality of the situation. What we can do is just as much as we can [Angel]

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Oh sorry KissTheSky, duh I just re-read your post; you said you purchased him. Well I am sure glad that in this particular situation it worked out in favor of the horse and he ended up somewhere more appropriate for him! Good luck with him.

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Oops, sorry I wasn't more clear- the video is of a different horse than the situation I posted. This guy (the bay in the video) was not at all like the 3yo, who had a bad attitude and mastered it. I don't know what his current situation is, other than we hope the owner would not ride him, and send him back to her cousins, who lent her the horse.

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Cutter123 ... of course I missed the vids, dangit, but I can't imagine you losing your horsemanship so much as getting in a storm you just had to engage to get through.

Wouldn't it be lovely if it were all sunshine and butterflies and picture perfect, Zen~kind of rides? Sadly, though, this is this world and that's just not the case.

Perhaps Pegasus became confused in this simple principle; cutters are likely the horses who work closest to true liberty this side of the circus while dressage horses are likely the most micro~managed horses on the planet.

BOTH are amazing and beautiful ... but most similarities end there.

Keep on Truckin, CH!

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Hey Cutter, quick question.....It may have been stated but I haven't been able to hit the last few pages yet.....are these people NOT coming out for lessons or to ride him under your guidance???

Honestly, I wouldn't take IN a horse with issues that has hurt someone without the agreement of lessons of SOME sort. I know when we sent a horse to training, the trainer we used said we could get free lessons for as long as the horse was there. This was SO nice because we were really able to get used to how this horse SHOULD work. Course it was a rope horse but she had her share of issues!

Just curious though, as I'm sure I missed this conversation somewhere along the line. [Duh]

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Thanks cutter!

One thing I will certainly give you propr for is that you are very good at explaining what you do. For some reason, while I can do things, it's hard to actually put them into words sometimes.

I too do not want a Western vs. English bashing fest. We are all here for the love and betterment (is that a word?) of the horse. I am mainly interested in foundation training - which is applicable to all horses regardless of intended discipline. My aim is always to have a horse that is very easy to handle on the ground, responsive, and a joy to ride, regardless of tack.

Unfortunately I am extremely short on time. I'm trying to pack to get out of here at 4 am tomorrow for a week of training for my new job. I'll be back on next weekend, and hopefully there will be some good stuff going on. I'd really like to contribute more now, but time has me running around like a chicken with my head cut off right now.

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Hey Cutter, quick question.....It may have been stated but I haven't been able to hit the last few pages yet.....are these people NOT coming out for lessons or to ride him under your guidance???

Honestly, I wouldn't take IN a horse with issues that has hurt someone without the agreement of lessons of SOME sort. I know when we sent a horse to training, the trainer we used said we could get free lessons for as long as the horse was there. This was SO nice because we were really able to get used to how this horse SHOULD work. Course it was a rope horse but she had her share of issues!

Just curious though, as I'm sure I missed this conversation somewhere along the line. [Duh]

The owner of the horse has been injured and won't be cleared for riding much before this horse is done with the 30 days it's in for. It is unfortunate, and I'm sure there will be conversations about what and how to do with this horse. Trainers don't always get the ideal world.

I have a friend that also broke her collar bone...it's been over 6 weeks and it's still not healed completely. She's cleared for walking on horses only with weight restrictions on how much she can lift/carry and for how long she can ride at a time. Honestly, her own body has put restrictions on it too! There's no real way for a person with a collar bone injury to get anything from lessons until that bone is healed and by then the horse would no longer be in training.

I'm sure that cutter and her trainer will do the best they can for this rider.

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They HAVE been busy this weekend. Cutter you had better keep on posting. I love reading your posts and love the videos, they are always helpful. I got some cutting insight from Bob and Joleen Nelson a few weeks ago while I was taking pics of a Cutting horse their client is selling. Bob gave me a little lesson on cutting body position and it was really interesting. They invited me back to turnback and I will have to take them up on that offer.

I look forward to seeing you in August!

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This whole post reminds me of a training creedo,.."Mirror it,...MATCH IT..and then add 4 ounces to FIX it!"

That is what I saw Cutter doing to help this horse.

[bat Eyelashes]

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