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sylvesmiller

Who has a horse with Lyme Disease?

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If you have a horse with Lyme Disease, respond, or IM me please. We are dealing with a very neuro horse (Quincy/Sylves). He was diagnosed with EPM (uncontaminated CSF sample) 18 months ago. We treated with Trads for 7 months. Four months later, he became neuro, so we used Navigator as prescribed. THere was VERY little improvement. Seven months later (current) he's neuro AGAIN. Since we can't afford the Marquis treatment for his 1600lb stature, and since the other two treatments did VERY LITTLE, we CAN'T afford to treat again using the same type of drug with such a big price tag. So, our vet suggested Oxytetracyline, administered IV for 7 days, 60 cc's. It was something we could afford, but we're not sure of the outcome, as there is not much research supporting this treatment. SCARY! We're on our third day of Oxytet treatment, and Quincy has only gotten more wobbly. Could this be lyme? Why the heck are the vets insistant that this isn't lyme? My husband trusts everything this vet says...he won't question them...so, he's not pushing the Lyme test because they keep saying that QUincy PROBABLY doesn't have it....FRUSTRATING!

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If you have a horse with Lyme Disease, respond, or IM me please. We are dealing with a very neuro horse (Quincy/Sylves). He was diagnosed with EPM (uncontaminated CSF sample) 18 months ago. We treated with Trads for 7 months. Four months later, he became neuro, so we used Navigator as prescribed. THere was VERY little improvement. Seven months later (current) he's neuro AGAIN. Since we can't afford the Marquis treatment for his 1600lb stature, and since the other two treatments did VERY LITTLE, we CAN'T afford to treat again using the same type of drug with such a big price tag. So, our vet suggested Oxytetracyline, administered IV for 7 days, 60 cc's. It was something we could afford, but we're not sure of the outcome, as there is not much research supporting this treatment. SCARY! We're on our third day of Oxytet treatment, and Quincy has only gotten more wobbly. Could this be lyme? Why the heck are the vets insistant that this isn't lyme? My husband trusts everything this vet says...he won't question them...so, he's not pushing the Lyme test because they keep saying that QUincy PROBABLY doesn't have it....FRUSTRATING!

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Can't you just pay for a lyme test yourself?

I had a horse with lyme, but his symptoms were just stiffness/attitude change. Didn't see any wobbliness or anything.

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Can't you just pay for a lyme test yourself?

I had a horse with lyme, but his symptoms were just stiffness/attitude change. Didn't see any wobbliness or anything.

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With my Lyme cases I've always seen behavioral changes first, then off/on shifting lamenesses nothing that I'd describe as "wobbly". But, as cheap as a Lyme titer is, I'd pull one just to be sure. Really, what have you got to lose, and it'll put your mind at peace.

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With my Lyme cases I've always seen behavioral changes first, then off/on shifting lamenesses nothing that I'd describe as "wobbly". But, as cheap as a Lyme titer is, I'd pull one just to be sure. Really, what have you got to lose, and it'll put your mind at peace.

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I know of a Lymes case where they believe it had entered his brain. He was wobbly, spooking and didn't seem to be able to see. He was acting completely nuts and neorlogical, but they knew it was Lyme because they had already begun treatment for his off the chart titer of Lyme. I would yell and scream till he got a Lymes test. Find another vet who will if this one won't. I would have never believed that lyme would show as symptoms like that, because I've seen only one horse that didn't have the classic symptoms and she just simply had a fever that kept spiking at like 106. But Lyme is a very mysterious disease. I can't say for sure that's what your poor boy has, but I do know of a case where his symptoms were similar to EPM.

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I know of a Lymes case where they believe it had entered his brain. He was wobbly, spooking and didn't seem to be able to see. He was acting completely nuts and neorlogical, but they knew it was Lyme because they had already begun treatment for his off the chart titer of Lyme. I would yell and scream till he got a Lymes test. Find another vet who will if this one won't. I would have never believed that lyme would show as symptoms like that, because I've seen only one horse that didn't have the classic symptoms and she just simply had a fever that kept spiking at like 106. But Lyme is a very mysterious disease. I can't say for sure that's what your poor boy has, but I do know of a case where his symptoms were similar to EPM.

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I have a horse with lymes (WAS TESTED) and she had all the symptoms except those of wildpony's. Not neuro at all.

Why would the vets treat for lymes but say he didn't have lymes? Oxytet treatment is only good if you use it as prescribed for Lymes which is IV 30 days at least. I did it for 45 and she was totally recovered after that.

I've also had 2 with EPM and I've stated on here time after time (I work with the top EPM researcher) if you treat with the sulfa drugs before Marquis or Nav. your chances for recovery are slim to nill.

I also worked with the vet that designed the protocol for Navigator. Gotta say if that didn't kill it, it was to far along or should have had a higher dose or longer dosing.

Unfortunately it is expensive to treat for EPM and so many vets aren't up on how to treat it and hate to burden their clients with expensive drugs. Marquis 2 doses back to back is the only thing I've seen work..or 1 dose of Nav. but you can't use the sulfa drugs first because that just prolongs the protozoa multiplying/migrating time.

Catching it early is key as well once they get to the point of where a non horseman can see there is a problem its too late. Its so important to know your horse, watch for little things. I'm the one who caught it a lot of time because I'm the one under the horse, so I would start asking the owner about things and they would say "oh yea he has been doing such and such". I can do the epm test because I got to help at the equine center. They would then call the vet and test and treat or not.

Symptoms for lymes is stiffness, dull, intermitant lameness, lazy...just not acting perky, dull coat and eyes. I've not seen any run a fever.

[ 03-15-2007, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Horseshoe ]

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I have a horse with lymes (WAS TESTED) and she had all the symptoms except those of wildpony's. Not neuro at all.

Why would the vets treat for lymes but say he didn't have lymes? Oxytet treatment is only good if you use it as prescribed for Lymes which is IV 30 days at least. I did it for 45 and she was totally recovered after that.

I've also had 2 with EPM and I've stated on here time after time (I work with the top EPM researcher) if you treat with the sulfa drugs before Marquis or Nav. your chances for recovery are slim to nill.

I also worked with the vet that designed the protocol for Navigator. Gotta say if that didn't kill it, it was to far along or should have had a higher dose or longer dosing.

Unfortunately it is expensive to treat for EPM and so many vets aren't up on how to treat it and hate to burden their clients with expensive drugs. Marquis 2 doses back to back is the only thing I've seen work..or 1 dose of Nav. but you can't use the sulfa drugs first because that just prolongs the protozoa multiplying/migrating time.

Catching it early is key as well once they get to the point of where a non horseman can see there is a problem its too late. Its so important to know your horse, watch for little things. I'm the one who caught it a lot of time because I'm the one under the horse, so I would start asking the owner about things and they would say "oh yea he has been doing such and such". I can do the epm test because I got to help at the equine center. They would then call the vet and test and treat or not.

Symptoms for lymes is stiffness, dull, intermitant lameness, lazy...just not acting perky, dull coat and eyes. I've not seen any run a fever.

[ 03-15-2007, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Horseshoe ]

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As has already been suggested, have a Lyme's titer drawn to either rule in or rule out Lyme's disease. It's easy, fast & cheap (about $20 here & had results back in a week). It's also a good idea because the signs of Lyme?s disease have been confused with osteochondritis dissecans (OCD), degenerative joint disease (DJD), tying-up, and equine protozoal myeloencephalitis (EPM), among others.

Symptoms of Lyme's disease may include:

*Fever - low grade

*Stiffness and lameness in multiple limbs; can be sporadic

*Painful muscles

*Hypersensitivity of the body surface and resentment of touch or pressure

*Joint swelling

*Chronic weight loss

*Laminitis (inflammation of the tissues inside the hoof wall)

*Eye inflammation

*Dysphagia (difficulty swallowing)

*Head tilt

*Encephalitis

*Dullness or other changes in behavior/attitude

*Depression

*Unwillingness to work (perhaps due to pain)

*Irritability

*Foal mortality is a possibility

Symptoms of EPM disease may include:

*Ataxia (incoordination), Spasticity (stiff, stilted movements), abnormal gait or lameness

*Incoordination and weakness which worsens when going up or down slopes or when head is elevated

*Muscle atrophy, most noticeable along the topline or in the large muscles of the hindquarters, but can sometimes involve the muscles of the face or front limbs

*Paralysis of muscles of the eyes, face or mouth, evident by drooping eyes, ears or lips

*Difficulty swallowing

*Seizures or collapse

*Abnormal sweating

*Loss of sensation along the face, neck or body

*Head tilt with poor balance; horse may assume a splay-footed stance or lean against stall walls for support

*Fatigue or narcolepsy - horse may seem to suddenly fall asleep, or lie down for extended periods

We had to treat Chardonnay for EPM almost 4 years ago. Since many of the signs of EMP mimic those found in other neurological disease, or may occur in a waxing/waning fashion, it was hard to diagnosis.

3 different vets over a period of 7 months thought she had anything from Navicular to back problems to a reaction from the rhino vaccine (which she had never had). [bang Head] Vet # 4, through a process of elimation of other neurological causes, thought she might have EMP. We decided to go ahead & treat her for EPM since the cost of treatment was about the same as having to haul her down to the U of M & having a spinal tap done along with all the other testing. Ended up treating her for 3 months with Daraprim & Sulfa & very slowly started working her again. She did improve but began showing signs again about 6 months later.

We then had her worked up down at the U of M & they performed a muscle bx. Diagnosis on the biopsy came back positive for either EPM or vitamin E deficiency. We tested her vitamin E level which was just fine (actually elevated) & also ran a blood EMP on her. Blood was positive, so along with the bx we knew we were on the right track & thought she had relapsed.

When our current vet came out to float her teath I was discussing this whole ordeal with him. He asked if Chardonnay had ever been tested for Lymes disease. I told him that all the other vets had mentioned it but no one had ever tested for it. He asked if he could go ahead & test her for Lymes. Guess what? Her Lymes titer came back positive! [Duh] After less than a week of a 2 week regime of antibiotic therapy Chardonnay was back to her old self & feeling fit-as-a-fiddle. [Yay] (This was now 15 months after the original symptoms started.)

In the end, we did come to the conclusion that she really did have EPM but that she had also been infected with Lymes disease somewhere along the way.

Today she is as healthy as ever. She's almost 19 & can run circles around the 2 younger geldings who are in the pasture with her.

;)For those of you who may have to have your horses tested for EMP in the future, according to the University of Minnesota there is a "new blood test for EPM using IgM Capture ELISA. This recently developed test is run on a blood sample & looks for an immunoglobulin (antibody) specifically found during an active S. neurona (EPM) infection. The test shows great promise, but has not been widely used yet in the general equine population. It is only run at the University of California-Davis so samples must be shipped. The test currently costs around $65 & results are usually back within a week."

Here are some links to additional info from the U of M, MyHorseMatters & theHorse. Maybe this info can help answer some of your questions.

From the U of M:

Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis - Questions & Answers

From MyHorseMatters.com:

Lyme's Disease in Horses

EPM: Understanding this Debilitating Disease

Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (Horseman's Day 2003)

Prevention of Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (EPM)

Does Your Horse Have EPM & How Can You Be Sure?

From theHorse:

ACVIM 2006: Lyme Disease Update

Lyme Disease Update

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As has already been suggested, have a Lyme's titer drawn to either rule in or rule out Lyme's disease. It's easy, fast & cheap (about $20 here & had results back in a week). It's also a good idea because the signs of Lyme?s disease have been confused with osteochondritis dissecans (OCD), degenerative joint disease (DJD), tying-up, and equine protozoal myeloencephalitis (EPM), among others.

Symptoms of Lyme's disease may include:

*Fever - low grade

*Stiffness and lameness in multiple limbs; can be sporadic

*Painful muscles

*Hypersensitivity of the body surface and resentment of touch or pressure

*Joint swelling

*Chronic weight loss

*Laminitis (inflammation of the tissues inside the hoof wall)

*Eye inflammation

*Dysphagia (difficulty swallowing)

*Head tilt

*Encephalitis

*Dullness or other changes in behavior/attitude

*Depression

*Unwillingness to work (perhaps due to pain)

*Irritability

*Foal mortality is a possibility

Symptoms of EPM disease may include:

*Ataxia (incoordination), Spasticity (stiff, stilted movements), abnormal gait or lameness

*Incoordination and weakness which worsens when going up or down slopes or when head is elevated

*Muscle atrophy, most noticeable along the topline or in the large muscles of the hindquarters, but can sometimes involve the muscles of the face or front limbs

*Paralysis of muscles of the eyes, face or mouth, evident by drooping eyes, ears or lips

*Difficulty swallowing

*Seizures or collapse

*Abnormal sweating

*Loss of sensation along the face, neck or body

*Head tilt with poor balance; horse may assume a splay-footed stance or lean against stall walls for support

*Fatigue or narcolepsy - horse may seem to suddenly fall asleep, or lie down for extended periods

We had to treat Chardonnay for EPM almost 4 years ago. Since many of the signs of EMP mimic those found in other neurological disease, or may occur in a waxing/waning fashion, it was hard to diagnosis.

3 different vets over a period of 7 months thought she had anything from Navicular to back problems to a reaction from the rhino vaccine (which she had never had). [bang Head] Vet # 4, through a process of elimation of other neurological causes, thought she might have EMP. We decided to go ahead & treat her for EPM since the cost of treatment was about the same as having to haul her down to the U of M & having a spinal tap done along with all the other testing. Ended up treating her for 3 months with Daraprim & Sulfa & very slowly started working her again. She did improve but began showing signs again about 6 months later.

We then had her worked up down at the U of M & they performed a muscle bx. Diagnosis on the biopsy came back positive for either EPM or vitamin E deficiency. We tested her vitamin E level which was just fine (actually elevated) & also ran a blood EMP on her. Blood was positive, so along with the bx we knew we were on the right track & thought she had relapsed.

When our current vet came out to float her teath I was discussing this whole ordeal with him. He asked if Chardonnay had ever been tested for Lymes disease. I told him that all the other vets had mentioned it but no one had ever tested for it. He asked if he could go ahead & test her for Lymes. Guess what? Her Lymes titer came back positive! [Duh] After less than a week of a 2 week regime of antibiotic therapy Chardonnay was back to her old self & feeling fit-as-a-fiddle. [Yay] (This was now 15 months after the original symptoms started.)

In the end, we did come to the conclusion that she really did have EPM but that she had also been infected with Lymes disease somewhere along the way.

Today she is as healthy as ever. She's almost 19 & can run circles around the 2 younger geldings who are in the pasture with her.

;)For those of you who may have to have your horses tested for EMP in the future, according to the University of Minnesota there is a "new blood test for EPM using IgM Capture ELISA. This recently developed test is run on a blood sample & looks for an immunoglobulin (antibody) specifically found during an active S. neurona (EPM) infection. The test shows great promise, but has not been widely used yet in the general equine population. It is only run at the University of California-Davis so samples must be shipped. The test currently costs around $65 & results are usually back within a week."

Here are some links to additional info from the U of M, MyHorseMatters & theHorse. Maybe this info can help answer some of your questions.

From the U of M:

Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis - Questions & Answers

From MyHorseMatters.com:

Lyme's Disease in Horses

EPM: Understanding this Debilitating Disease

Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (Horseman's Day 2003)

Prevention of Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (EPM)

Does Your Horse Have EPM & How Can You Be Sure?

From theHorse:

ACVIM 2006: Lyme Disease Update

Lyme Disease Update

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